Reid My Mind

TR:
Greetings family!
And welcome to any new comers. Y’all are family too now.

Stay tuned, I’ll have more about how to become official members of the Reid My Mind Radio family at the end of the episode.

Some of you do know, I have the ability to read minds. If you’re suspicious about that statement, well go back to the Blind Girl Magic episode and you’ll see for yourselves. Hmm! In fact, I can read so deep into your mind, I already know you’re not only gonna enjoy this episode, you’re going to want to let all your friends know.

Why not just go ahead right now and first, make sure you’re subscribed or following the podcast. Second, go ahead and hit that share button and say something like, “Hey friend, I’m listening to this podcast I just heard about recently. I thought it was about audio description, but it’s actually so much more than that.”

Now, send it to someone you love. I mean, if you really love them.

Filtered as if a thought) T, the love thing might be a bit too much.

I just think you’re really going to want to share the podcast. Fine, you’ll see.

— Reid My Mind Radio Theme Music

Nic:
Hey, I’m Nic Novicki. I’m a little person with a bit of a beard going on right now, and I’m wearing a black shirt. My pronouns are he, him his, and I’m a comedian, actor, writer, producer, and I’m the founder and director of the Easterseals disability film challenge,

TR:
If you’re not familiar with the Easterseals Disability Film Challenge (EDFC) you should be.

EDFC is a filmmaking competition that provides a platform that aims to increase representation of people with disabilities both in front of and behind the camera.

The challenge emphasizes authentic storytelling and provides mentorship and educational opportunities.

It’s an opportunity to showcase disabled talent in front and behind the camera and gain exposure in the entertainment industry.

Founder Nic Novicki, has been in over 50 television shows and movies Among them, HBO’s Boardwalk Empire.

— Scene from Boardwalk Empire with Nic and Steve Buscemi.

Nic:
The majority of my work has been self driven, with me writing and producing and creating my own content, because I’m three foot 10, and ultimately, nobody was creating the kind of stuff for me through the traditional system. I wasn’t getting the opportunities through regular auditions that I wanted. So I started doing it myself.

TR:
Nic reaped the rewards of doing that work and wants the same for others.

Nic:
I remember 12 years ago being like, why aren’t more people with disabilities creating their own work? Because it created all these opportunities for me, and I’ve always felt a common bond, not only to other little people, but to people with other disabilities, whether you’re blind, you’re deaf, you have an invisible disability or wheelchair user.

I just think there’s so much talent within our community. So that’s what made me create the disability film challenge.

TR:
What Nic initially thought would be a one time thing has turned into an annual event.

We can’t actually talk about the film challenge without learning more about Nic’s own career and experience. As you’ll see, they’re tied together.
TR in Conversation with Nic:
So let’s go back a little bit, because I’m interested in how you got started.
You’re a stand up comedian and actor. So what came first, acting or comedy?

Nic:
I really started doing a version of Stand Up Comedy when I was a little kid, because I used to raise money for Little People of America, and I would do these talks at Rotary Clubs. Now I was so small at that time. I’m still three foot 10, but when I was a kid, I was so small. So I go behind this podium, and there’d never be anything for me to stand on. So I’d always make a joke about it. I go, Hey, who forgot the stool? And everybody would start dying because I’m a little kid and I’m heckling the organizer.
I realized in that moment that, hey, now everybody’s listening when I’m talking.

They’re entertained, and now they’re listening to what I have to say.

TR:
Recognizing the power and the strength in who you are early in life is a gift.
As a young child Nic had aspirations of playing professional sports.

Nic:
Even though I’m a little person and was always so much smaller than everybody I played in all the local sports and then all of a sudden, when I went to junior high, everybody got way too big. Also I had more things related to my dwarfism, so I was having a hard time walking. So I decided to find theater, and I loved it. And so I was doing plays all through middle school and high school, and at that time, I thought I was just gonna do that for fun, because I got a scholarship to go to business school.
But then my first week of college, I found stand up comedy, and I never looked back.

TR:
Shout out to Temple University. (T U!)
I’m a proud Dad of a Temple grad!

Let’s hear more about that first experience with stand up comedy.

Nic:
As a little person, comedy is for me.

When people are going to say something about me, I’ll deflect, and I’ll do a joke. I always knew how to kind of use comedy to diffuse the situation and to sort of be like my turtle shell.

— Music begins A synth crescendos into a bouncy groove.

First week of college and I’m going on a date with a girl that was also a little person. And so we go to this comedy club, and we get sat in the front row. And I’ve never been to a comedy show. I’m just turned 19.

So we go in the front row, and every single comedian, this is the open mic night, like, look at that. It’s Willow and willows wife, and they’re just cracking on us every time. And she was upset by it, but I was just like laughing along. Whatever, it is what it is.

The host comes up and goes, if you want to come back next week, you could tell your side.

TR:
I have my own experience sitting in the front row of a comedy show. This was before blindness and fortunately, the comedian was nice to me. Some might say I have a don’t mess with me face.
But trust me, there’s no protection from comedians. Never sit in the front row!

Nic:
I know you got listeners from. All over the country and all over the world. The Northeast there’s a different energy in New York, New Haven, Philadelphia, Boston, people don’t just keep what they’re thinking in their head. They always say it out loud, hey, look, he’s little. Look at that man. How old are you? What’s up? Are you blind?

TR:
My first reaction, defend the east coast, but I just can’t yet. Let’s keep going.

Nic:
I think that there’s a good thing about openness, so I prefer to just let things be out in the open. That’s the way I’ve always been. I’m not going to let you upset me because you said something about me. I don’t care. I am little.
We don’t need to be weirded out or concerned about why I’m the way I am. I am the way I am, and it is the way I am.

TR:
I love that perspective. But at the same time, for my east coasters, we don’t always have to say what’s on our mind. At least, let it simmer in before you let it out of your mouth. To Nic’s point, there is value in the conversation.

Nic:
I think there’s a different energy sometimes when people are staring and they won’t say anything, rather than asking a question, and then moving on with where we’re at in the moment, socially or professionally, I think it’s important to be upfront and open.

I’ve always said let my comedy help elevate that so that again, now I’m breaking the ice with a joke, and now we’re moving on.

TR:
Let’s get back to Nic being invited to share his perspective on stage at the comedy club’s open mic.
Spoiler, he went back.

Nic:
I sign up, and I just tell everything from my point of view.
Growing up, being little, I can’t reach this.

It gave me something that was just addictive. It was the ability for me to tell my point of view of life, to talk about my experience, some of which was just me being a teenager, me having a hard time.
I had literally broke up with that girl in that week.
So not only was I just talking about my life as a little person,

I’m just complaining about things that were relatable to anybody.
I fell in love with it.

— Music ends

TR:
It’s not just about knowing what you like, it’s what moves you. And don’t under estimate the value in self awareness.

Nic:
I’m not necessarily the greatest comedian in the world or the greatest actor in the world, but I am good at meeting people and selling them about what I want to do, and an idea and a passion and why we should all work together. So really, at the end of the day, I’m kind of a connector. That’s what I am as a filmmaker, as a producer. I put people together. I don’t usually have access to the money or a lot of the other stuff, but what I think I am pretty good at is selling my passion for comedy and my passion for acting and it’s the same passion that’s there for the disability community.

TR:
The Easterseals Disability Film Challenge combines Nic’s passions for film, the disability community and self determination.

Nic:
You oftentimes in Hollywood, get put in a box whether you have a disability or whether you don’t, and I think when you do have a disability, when you’re a little person, you get put into that box for little people roles.

I wasn’t getting those media auditions to be the guy that gets the girl, or the boss, or the kind of great roles that up and coming actor would want to get. I think I was limited in those kind of auditions.

TR:
Meanwhile, Nic had options, including business school and opportunities to work on wall street.

Nic:
I did this because I love to do it. So for me, it was always about how can I do the kind of projects that I want to do.

I always grew up being a fan of The Godfather. I was like, Look, no one’s gonna write me into that role, so I need to write it for myself,

TR in Conversation with Nic:
So what was the first role that you wrote for yourself since you started doing that?

Nic:
I was writing a web series.
I did something called the urban Guardian…
— Audio from Urban Guardian

… and it was a guy who wasn’t a superhero. He didn’t really have any superpowers, but he just liked to wear this outfit to try to get girls.
It’s just me kind of running around, and I can’t really fix things, and I’m trying to date.

So I always kind of thought of ways to just write something so that I could be on a date or in a romantic situation or the gangster in roles that I wanted to play.

TR:
Fortunately, Nic was aware that a career in acting is uncertain. He began writing and producing his own material after landing what many would perceive as a major win.

— Scene from Nic in the Sopranos

Nic:
I booked a role on The Sopranos when I was pretty young. It wasn’t like a gangster. I was just a nightclub manager.

It was pretty amazing. But I was like, now I need to show myself on what it could look like to be a gangster.

TR:
Nic didn’t become a made man or the head of a crime family.
Of course, I’m talking about movie roles.
I don’t know what he does in his personal life.
What’s really important though, he found a blue print in his process for creating the film.

Nic:
I was able to put people together, a real, high quality camera person, a writer, and I just sold them in my vision. Hey, can you help me for this one day.

You need to figure out one day, one weekend, that you’re going to do something.
The camera person I need you on this one day, and the editor I need you for this very short period of time.
So that’s always been my philosophy.

TR:
An optimistic way of looking at the world and people in my humble opinion, is actually pretty important to getting things done.

Nic:
I think that people want to help.
I think overall, for the disability community, people that don’t have disabilities, I have always found want to help. They want to be there as an ally.

TR:
The next step in this grass roots or a guerilla style approach to production is a hard deadline.

Nic:
Figure out how to get people so that you’re only asking for them to work at a reduced rate, or in some cases, for free, for one day.
You’re over asking if you’re trying to get people to work lower than their normal rates for extended periods of times. It’s never going to happen.

TR:
Respecting people’s time means being upfront and realistic about your ask. It also means this is your project so you need to assure everything is accounted for.

Nic:
you need to get the equipment, maybe you need to get the location, you need to plan everything out,

And I think it’s very important for you to really show your appreciation for the people that help you with this project, that help you create this vision.

TR:
Of course the appreciation cam be shown with cash money, but there’s more.

Nic:
I can write a letter. I could send a nice email. I can call him and tell him how much I appreciate him, and I can also show other people how great that person is and recommend them for other jobs.

TR in Conversation with Nic:
So that is EDFC.

Nic:
Literally! I came up with the idea initially, 12 years ago, of the disability film challenge, based on what I was doing in my own career, shortened periods of time, putting people together, getting stuff done for pretty much, I gotta be honest, for oftentimes with zero budget.
talking to restaurants about trying to get free food.
If I was paying somebody, it was a very small kit fee. So everything that the original disability film challenge was based on things that I did in my own career.

TR:
The Disability Film Challenge was formed.

Nic:
the first disability film challenge 12 years ago. I thought was just going to be a one off competition. We had five films that were created that first year. And actually the films were only done in three days. Now we have five days where you make films.

And then the disability community is like, when’s the next one? I was like, Whoa, I guess I have to do another one. So then I did year or two, and then it kept growing. And then Peter Fairley came on board as a mentor that year too.

TR:
Peter Fairley is a filmmaker, director, screenwriter, producer, and novelist.
known for films including There’s Something About Mary, Dumb and Dumber, Shallow Hal, Kingpin, and several others.
He’s also been a long time supporter of disability rights.

Nic:
So word was spreading, and then it kept growing, and then I partnered with Easterseals in 2017 Easterseals is the nation’s largest Disability Services organization. So it’s now the Easterseals disability film challenge.
Now we have 850 films that have been created from around the world over these last 12 years.

TR:
Films from around the world which means representing a global perspective of disability.

Nic:
When you talk about the word disability, one in four Americans have a disability, and that’s self identifying as having a disability, but that also includes so many different kinds of disability, little people, wheelchair users, cerebral palsy, blind, deaf, invisible disabilities, autism, Down syndrome. veteran with PTSD. All these different disabilities. And they’re all making films and showcasing their disability.

TR:
To be clear, EDFC is about disability representation behind and in front of the camera. Disability as a topic is not required.

Nic:
I’m proud to be little. I’m proud to have a disability that’s always been the way I’ve been my whole life. But when it comes to making art, I don’t necessarily always want to talk about being a little person in my own projects, I like to just let that I am a little person be another layer to the film.
Now we don’t need to address it through making comments. the medium of film addresses it for us.

TR:
Of course, those of us who are Blind require access to that identifying information.

Nic:
generally speaking, the film challenge is really an opportunity where everybody makes their own films. And I’ve always encouraged since day one, make these films as accessible as you can. Everyone should be welcome.

Just being 100% honest, my community and my place within the disability world was other little people.
That was the disability community that I grew up with and that I knew. So I grew up with little people. I went to Little People conventions.
When I started the film challenge, I didn’t know as many other disabled people.

TR:
I don’t have any hard data, but I imagine this is quite common. When I became Blind, I didn’t seek out disability organizations, I specifically sought out others who were Blind.

I think that framing can make a persons perspective of accessibility pretty narrow.

That is until you’re exposed to those different from you.

Nic:
And I think year after year, we gotta figure out, we got somebody in a wheelchair, we can’t do a Q and A and this guy’s not able to go.

TR:
In addition to physical access, we know there are those requiring sensory access.

That includes captions and audio description.

Nic:
so frankly, because of the scale, the amount of films it was daunting.
we’re always in a place between budgets, between just scaling things we’re learning, we’re learning and trying to figure out how to get things done.

— Music begins an upbeat groove.

We had a discussion, me and you, and we talked about what could be done. And I remember saying, well, we have 123 films that are created and put online within a weekend. You’re like, Whoa.

I was like, Well, what if we were to create audio description for the finalist films, and even that in a very short time frame.

TR in Conversation with Nic:
yeah, which is fitting with the Disability Film Challenge. The AD film challenge! (Laughs)

Nic:
That’s right.

TR:
We’re talking 8 days to produce description for up to 16 films

For Social Audio Description Collective that means all hands on deck.
We’re going through as much as our production process as possible with the exception of communicating with the film creators.
The EDFC team selects the finalists including best film, best director, best editing etc., but they don’t announce that until the award ceremony. Therefore, SADC needs to have all the films described and returned to the EDFC team in time for the ceremony, where the finalist films are viewed, with open audio description.

Cool, but I’m not going to act as if Fifteen described films out of over 100 is a complete solution.
I will say it’s a significant start.

Nic:
I’m 42 years old. I was born before the Americans with Disabilities Act existed, to be honest, the ADA is here, but not necessarily always enforced. For me as a little person, when I go into the airports in LA, I can’t wash my hands in a lot of places. I can’t reach buttons and I do jokes about it, but we’re living in a world that is not always fully accessible for everybody.

Look, I think access is something that evolves.

TR:
True indeed. And while we wait on that evolution, personally, I’m for doing everything we can to spark that revolution.
Which by the way should be televised, shown in theaters, streamed online, acted out on stage all with equitable access!
Including captions, description, ASL and let’s not forget enhanced transcripts for our Deafblind family.

TR in Conversation with Nic:
You can’t do it all, but these parameters that you have, sometimes they help you get it done.

AD is a lot more intensive than captions, right?
And so to ask a filmmaker, especially a filmmaker who doesn’t know anything about audio description, to ask them to sort of create this within that five day period, that’s a lot.

This is sort of a beginning.
At least it’s bringing the attention of audio description to the rest of the community. And if we are going to have access,
— Music ends.
I think the community showing that we care about each other’s access is a big deal.

Nic:
I agree.

TR:
When we, the disability community, work together to assure our own access to our content, we model the concept of interdependence and mutual aid. We set the expectation for others. It’s what EDFC is doing for film making.

You can check out all of the audio described finalists films from both 2024 and 2025 Easterseals Disability Film Challenge on YouTube. I’ll link you there directly from this episode’s blog post at ReidMyMind.com.

Nic:
Now I’m wondering too, when, frankly, like, YouTube will make it so there’s the AD button, like a CC button, so that things can come on and off.

TR:
Right now, AD consumers, you have to find the AD version of the film which has been uploaded separately with open audio description.
Unlike the interface found on other streaming networks that let you simply select the AD track.
EDFC film makers need to check both versions of their film to figure out how many people actually watched the film.

Nic:
I think it’s up to some of these tech companies meta , YouTube, to step their game up.

TR in Conversation with Nic:
I’ve been told that they have it, but they’ve been rolling it out slowly and I don’t understand why.

they should give EDF C access to this, because that would make a lot of sense.

Nic:
I think that would be awesome.

TR:
The exposure these films receive is creating even more opportunities for many involved in front and behind the camera.
In fact, the industry, the community and individuals are all simultaneously benefiting.

Nic:
The Easterseals disability film challenge. Has been a huge resource for the casting Society of America, and the casting directors and the networks and studios have been finding film challenge films, and directly reaching out to people and auditioning them for roles that don’t have to do with their disability, specifically because of the challenge and the films that are all on YouTube.

TR:
And we know, representation matters!

Nic:
Generally, we’re one fourth the population, but we’re less than 2% of on screen representation.

A major study came out that said the vast majority of those are played by non disabled actors.

TR:
EDFC is having a direct impact on improving authentic representation.

Nic:
We have so many success stories that have come for people getting hired in front of the camera this year.

Amazon, MGM Studios said, Hey, we have a role for a movie. They didn’t tell us what movie it was, but we’re looking for actors on the autism spectrum. Do you have any actors? We were able to send them several dozen films, and they ended up casting Nic Sanchez, but everybody else got auditions.

Tr:
That project, the Accountant 2.

Nic:
Same thing happened on the TV show Loudermilk, which is very popular on Netflix. Peter Farrelly said, Hey, we’re looking for a little person actress. Do you know anybody? We were able to send several dozen little people actresses, they all auditioned. And Sophia Cheyenne, a little person, actor in New York who’s so talented and has been busting her butt for years doing theater, ended up in a multi year recurring role filming in Vancouver.

TR:
And those behind the camera?

Nic:
We’ve had editors on the autism spectrum that got hired on dozens of jobs and got to meet with mentors from HBO and HBO Max. We’ve had people get development meetings. We had a deaf director, Chrissy Marshall, and she just got accepted into the Sony diverse directing program, Sony Pictures Television, so she’s getting in front of people, and literally from the challenge and now spotlighted to possibly being able to direct TV. And through this amazing program, CBS has put people into casting initiatives, both as actors, but also learning how to be a casting director.

TR:
Shining a light on these films can lead to a wider distribution.

Nic:
Film festivals reach out to us and they say, Hey, we’re a festival here in the US, and we want to screen your film. We’re a festival in Europe. We’re a festival in India, we’ve gotten contacted by festivals in Russia, all over the world, they want to screen these films. And the coolest thing is, everybody owns their own film, so they have the ability to screen and submit these films and turn these films into larger projects.

TR:
EDFC is even helping with that.

Nic:
We have grants that have been awarded to film Challenge participants so they could further develop their projects.

We were able to give $25,000 grants out this year for film challenge films alumni from the past to be able to further develop their projects.

TR:
In addition to the exposure, the grants, participating in the film challenge adds to a persons demo reel, increases their network and provides real world experience.

And for any other film festivals listening, please take note, finalist also receive the access assets; i.e. caption and audio description files.
This is extremely helpful in general, but also for those festivals that require accessibility. Shout out to y’all!

Let’s be real, you don’t get the growth and results that EDFC has achieved over the past 12 years without Nic getting out there and promoting this event.

Nic:
I’m thinking about it at night. I’m waking up, I’m going to events. I always have a flyer on me, and that’s the way it started.

I hustled big time. I went to film festivals. I would put flyers up outside of places. Just with scotch tape outside of banks and restaurants and things where I didn’t have permission, I just put it out there.

(The two laugh.)

TR:
Nic made sure to let me know he had some help.

Nic:
I got to give my wife, who’s also a little person, teal, huge credit and shout out. She was there with me in the beginning for our first editing workshop that we had. We were making sandwiches.
I would promote
You can learn how to edit for free, and we got free sandwiches.

TR in Conversation with Nic:
So all of that was on your own dime, I’m assuming?

Nic:
Oh yeh. I was maxing out credit card(s).

We have a lot of amazing sponsors now.
Easterseales been amazing and really helped me escalate the challenge.
We have to be creative still because things get really expensive. We try to make everything for free and accessible.

We’re doing everything we can to try to push the community forward and push representation forward.
The film challenge is a community.
We get together at events. Oftentimes the event is supposed to end at this time, and we’re still all there. We get kicked out eventually.
It’s a beautiful community, and we just love being around each other and supporting each other. And even though the challenge has now gotten so competitive, I think people are so supportive of each other.

TR:
with all the effort Nic puts into the film challenge, he still finds time to continue working as a touring comedian.

Nic:
I’m lucky to still be working a lot as a comedian. I tour with Nate Bargatze.
I’m still working as an actor a lot, but I work on this challenge every single day of the week.
There’s another kind of feeling that I get in my stomach and in my heart when I know that other people are following their dreams through this. I never really would have thought it would have snowballed like that.
I’m just the luckiest guy in the world that one, I’ve been able to professionally be a comedian and an actor for over 20 years. People that I work with, people that I have professional relationships with will agree to come on and serve as a mentor for the challenge.
I feel very blessed.

TR:
With so much of the Easterseals Disability Film Challenge being based on Nic’s personal career and experience, what else can be learned from his hustle?

Nic:
It’s just baby steps. the same for my own career and stand-up. Doing fit for free, sleeping in Penn Station, going back and forth from Philly to New York, you know, and paying to do comedy, because it would cost more for me to get to a gig than I would make.

TR in Conversation with Nic
I do not endorse sleeping at Penn Station.

(The two laugh)

Nic:
It’s a gradual process. Don’t put too much pressure on yourselves of saying I’m only giving myself three months, and if I don’t make it, that’s it. No, no, no. You made it because you’re doing it.
You make your film and if there’s some sound issues or something else, don’t worry. You made something. You put it out there in the world. You can always do another color pass or something else. But I always tell people to make sure it gets out there. Because you’re never going to get discovered if you don’t put yourself out there.
The community, the world wants you. You belong, get yourself out there, build your team.

TR:
I know several of you are listening and want to make a film for next year’s challenge.

Nic:
Step 1, register and put it out there the same way I did for myself.
You always can use your own network to further yourself in your mission and put people together.

TR:
At the time of this recording, the dates for 2026 Easterseals Disability Film Challenge aren’t available just yet, but head on over to DisabilityFilmChallenge.com for more information and follow them on social media …

Nic:
@Disability film challenge
And also follow me. See me do comedy or projects I’m doing as an artist too, at Disability film challenge for the challenge, or at
Nic Novicki. N I C N O V I C K I.

I’ll be doing shows at the flappers comedy club. So if you’re in LA, send me a message, I may be able to get you a comp or a discounted ticket.
I’m in the TV show, bad thoughts that just dropped on Netflix, so you can see me in episodes four and five of that. I have some other projects I can’t talk about because I just signed an NDA, but I am gonna act in a project the small part, which I’m very excited about. And I’m gonna keep making my own stuff too. So I’m not just preaching it.

— Music begins: A piano synth loop that leads to a strong kick and driving beat.

TR:
Shout out to Nic Novicki, disabled film makers and those who are actively working to increase authentic representation.

And shout out to Social Audio Description Collective at SocialAudioDescription.com.

TR in conversation with Nic:
When folks come on the podcast and share their experience and knowledge with the family, they themselves become part of the family so you Nic Novicki…(echoes)

“You’re Official”

TR:
In 2014 I introduced you to this podcast | It’s a passion project, that means all love, no cash
Over 10 years bringing you nothing but facts | my goal for this has always been impact!
I invite a guest, take a topic tailor it just for you | a disability perspective always shining through
Thanks to my guest for sharing your time with me, You’re official | Reid My Mind Radio Family… RAH!

Official, uh uh official | Official, uh uh official !
Official, uh uh official | Official, uh uh official
You’re Official! | Reid My Mind Radio Family!

Official, uh uh official | Official, uh uh official !
Now whose official? | Official, uh uh official
Nic, Ni, Nic
Nic Novicki
You’re Official! Reid My Mind Radio Family!
Nic
I love it.

For all y’all thinking, hmmm, what can I do| I wrote a checklist so you can become official too
Sample: “One” Chuck D!
You just can’t be down if you don’t follow or subscribe | That’s the number 1 way to join this tribe!
Sample: “Two” Chuck D!
Shout it out! Tell all your friends and your foes | That’s the way we help eachother and the podcast grows
Sample: “Three” Chuck D!
Buy merch, shirt or hoodie for yourself or yourboo | Now look at that, you’re official too! Woo!

Official, uh uh official | Official, uh uh official !
Now whose official? | Official, uh uh official
You’re Official! Reid My Mind Radio Family!

Official, uh uh official | Official, uh uh official
I said who’s official? | Official, uh uh official
(Applause)
You’re Official! | Reid My Mind Radio Family!

There it is!

Follow or subscribe wherever you get podcasts!
You know how we do, right?
Transcripts and more are at ReidMyMind.com
And so there’s never, ever, ever, ever any confusion
That’s R to the E I
Sample: D! And that’s me in the place to be! Slick Rick
Like my last name!
— Reid My Mind Radio Outro
Peace

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Sample: “This is a journey into sound.” eric B and Rakim

TR:
— Sound of the Reid My Mind Radio studio door opening. (A bit of squeak going on with that door!)

Casually singing to himself… It’s time! Time to make a change, we are the people who can do it!

Where are my headphones…
(takes a deep breath)
What’s up family, welcome back to another episode of Reid My Mind Radio.
First time here? Let me tell you about a few things you need to know.

I’m Thomas Reid, host and producer of this here podcast.
Nice to meet you!

We’re in the midst of the Flipping the Script on Audio Description season. This is where we go beyond the mainstream audio description conversation to talk about how this art impacts the community. To some extent, today’s episode is a continuation from the last featuring Kemal Gorey.
In that episode, we saw how audio description was a tool for Kemal to compose the score for a silent film.
That got me thinking, hmm, do we as Blind consumers of visual content, listen to sound and music in a film in a way that helps us interpret that content?

Today’s episode may not feel like what you’ve come to expect from Flipping the Script, but I invite you to listen, carefully.

— Reid My Mind Theme Music

Estevan:
Hello. My name is Estevan Carlos Benson, and I live in Los Angeles, originally from Texas. I am an artist, educator, musician and composer. Right now I teach at USC Art Center, College of Design and Pasadena City College in the Southern California area. My pronouns are he, him and I am black and Mexican. Brown skin tone, beard, shaved headand about medium build wearing a brown shirt and glasses that I describe as very reminiscent of 1980s computer programmer.

TR:
Shout out to all my Black and brown brothers with bald heads and beards.
You know, every now and then I invite someone on with no personal relationship to disability.

Estevan:
The extent of my relationship is teaching subjects that deal with accessibility, something under the umbrella of user experience. It’s meant to be broad. Generally dealing with screen based experiences that could be web, but any sort of application. So it’s a little bit agnostic with the technology.

I’ve taught some classes where we’ll talk about music applications we may discuss;
how are people understanding the screen?
How do we handle things such as color blindness in order to communicate effectively. How do we deal with different aspects of vision, of legibility for the screen? And then, of course,
when it comes to the web, then we discuss the accessibility guidelines.

TR:
Today’s conversation is not about WCAG, but it is sort of related to the user experience.
AD users.

In addition to teaching, Estevan is a musician and composer.

Estevan:
Probably like most other musicians, I started off as a young person interested and intrigued by music.
I really enjoy those early years of being extremely curious.
I’m hearing music. I’m fascinated by what I hear. I took some fundamental kind of piano lessons as a preteen that held my attention to some extent.
Then eventually, I had a uncle who gave me access to a computer and early MIDI sequencer or notation software.
Just writing notation to play back generic piano sounds. As a teenager, got a synthesizer, and kind of went from there. So I’ve been making music since I was probably 16 or 17.

TR:
Estevan studied music as an undergrad and became quite passionate about the science of digital music. He continued making his own music and was encouraged to consider scoring for films.

Estevan:
So in 2020 I decided to get more involved that community. And so I’ve worked on small independent short films, documentaries, and then also got more involved with interactive music and composing for art installations.

TR:
Prior to 2020, music for film was part of Estevan’s music education.

Estevan:
I loved understanding the theoretical aspects of it and just the fundamentals. I remember reading a book from Walter Murch, who is possibly more known as an editor. He’s one of the editors of the early Star Wars films, but he’s also a sound designer. One of his books is called Conversations with Walter Murch. It’s fantastic. It was very inspiring. It was great to read someone discussing sound design in a very serious way and reflecting on how he approached it and here’s how we can all think about sound in our film.
That generally informed my approach later on.

TR:
The book, titledThe Conversations: Walter Murch and the Art of Editing Film
is available on Bookshare.org.

TR in Conversation with Estevan
Tr in Conversation with Estevan:
What exactly is sound design? How would you define that for folks?

Estevan:
You’re manipulating sound, carving and crafting sound to express or to represent. Sometimes the sound needs to be open to interpretation, and maybe a lot of interpretation. So it’s an expression, it can be mood. And then sometimes the sound is intended to represent something, it may lean towards more literal representation, similar to how there can be a tradition of visual communication between something that is abstract, open to a lot of interpretation, and then something that’s representational, that is intended to look like a thing.

TR:
So the same applies to sound.

An example of a more representational sound would be foot steps when someone is walking down a street.
While a melancholy musical score may express their mood.

Estevan:
I think when Walter Murch is talking in that book, he’s trying to help the reader understand that there is much more room for expression here than his peers or people in the past have taken seriously. Not to say that every film of the past only uses sound representationally to literally represent something, but when you have a medium that is less understood, it may be more difficult to be expressive in it.

TR:
We know society focuses much more on visuals in comparison to sound. It’s the difference between audio description and captions. We have more words to describe visuals than we do for sound. Turn on captions for your average television show or film and I can almost garuntee the sounds of the film including music will be minimally described if at all.

Like “music plays”. (Filtered voice)What’s that?

Estevan:
So I think that is one of the changes and shifts that we’ve had, I suspect, in film over these many decades of using sound in ways that can be expressive and not just hyper literal representation.

TR in Conversation with Estevan

Do sound designers, like other artists, specialize , like, a literal sound designer versus someone who’s more interpretive expressionist. Or do you have to have the ability to do both?

Estevan:
Under the umbrella of sound design, you may include someone known as the foley artist, or Foley sounds. So if you’re including that that person is leaning towards, not always, but leaning towards more representation of what is on the screen. So that does exist. But does someone have to really focus on one area or the other? Not necessarily, if you are a Foley artist or Foley person, then yes, you will be likely leaning towards representing information. But for most people who have the title of sound designer they really need to be able to move in any direction to kind of just fulfill the goals of the project.
TR:
you probably heard of Foley artists. They’re the folks who make all the sounds for the films. Literally, making the sounds.

Take your average fight scene in a movie. It’s probably going to consist of punches,
— Sample Sound of a punch.

kicks
— Sound of kicking.

and my favorite breaking tables, chairs and glass.
— Sounds of a wooden table and glass breaking.
It kind of reminds me of my latest bar fight.
It wasn’t my fault, I was just passing time and stepped into a bar for a drink. I was waiting for the bartender…

— Dream harp

Voice calls out: “Jimmy”

TR:
I tried taking a seat at the bar when all of a sudden.

— Sound of breaking glass.

TR in Bar: “Oh my bad. Please, let me buy you another drink.”

Guy in Bar:
“Look a here, we got a blind guy come knock down my beer and now says he gonna buy me another one.”

TR in Bar: “Hey man, I’m just trying to be polite. I’m not looking for any trouble.”
Guy in Bar: Ya heard that Billy Bob, blind boy says he ain’t LOOKING for trouble. Show him what we do around these parts”

— Sound of something moving through the air.

TR in Bar: Sounds like nun chucks. Seriously, I’m Blind, you’re not impressing me.
Hey man, please don’t put your hands on me. You don’t want to make me angry.
Guy in Bar: Ya heard that Billy Bob, we don’t want to make Ray Charles here angry.”

TR in Bar: Ok, this is what we’re doing today?

— Punches,kicks and glass breaking begin.
Pow! Zap! Splatt!

TR in Bar: Hey, if anyone sees the bartender, please order me a vodka cranberry while I handle these fools.

Splatt! Zap! Pow!
— Reverse dream harp.
TR:
Ok, , I don’t endorse violence in any form.
Well, some of my fondest memories involve violence.

— Audio from a fight scene in the original Batman television series with lots of Pow! Zaps! Splatt!

TR:
Today there are lots of sound libraries with pre recorded sounds for all sorts of situations,
films with larger budgets continue to customize their sound design.

— “Ah, you caught us Batman, but your crime fighting days are over.” From Batman

TR in Conversation with Estevan:
I want to know about some of the basics that we should be listening for when we’re consuming visual content.

Like that creaking door. Something’s about to happen. Get out of there.

(The two laugh)

TR:
I know, who am I to talk about a creeking door. That was my actual door in the intro.
But the joke was right there.

Estevan:
So we’re asking, what is the sound designer doing that they hope the audience may listen for. And I think what’s interesting about that question is normally, the sound designer recognizes and acknowledges some of the detail they’re putting in there will not be heard at a conscious level.

Our brains or mind has to filter out a lot of information that we’re dealing with as we’re navigating spaces and experiences. So when we’re listening to anything, we’re not really able, nor necessarily should we be hearing every single thing all at once. So the sound designer has to work with that in mind they’re going to craft something, and the audience may sort of hear it consciously, but sort of won’t hear it.
So the audience can tell ourselves to listen to everything. I think one way to do that is to see if your mind can focus on the quiet sounds during moments that are loud.

TR:
We’re talking about active listening.

Estevan:
For example, you may have someone like shouting and yelling, but there may be quiet sounds in the background or in between that might tell you some of the story. That might be the subtlety that the director and sound designer are trying to express. I find in some scenes where there’s a lot of activity multiple people talking over each other and things like that, there can be subtle sounds in between here and there that are helping to express the scene, but easy to overlook because you’re trying to listen to the dialog. And then I think other sounds we sometimes may easily overlook that one can’t pay attention to, are the environmental sounds, the tones of a space, room tones and so forth, that can help give you context. And are not just there to tell you a place, but may also be there to represent a mood sometimes.

TR:
My home office used to be right off the kitchen on the main floor. I was very aware of any cars or trucks that drove into my driveway which was on the opposite side of the house.
This is active listening in my daily life.

Something I think I unknowingly trained myself to do because I want to knowif someone is entering my space. Eh yo, back up son!

Estevan:
You’re describing how your mind and our minds in general, can be attuned to certain things. So the issue isn’t so much that the car pulling into the driveway may be exceptionally loud. It may not be, but your mind is able to observe it, and then it is set up in so that upon. Observation, it becomes an important detail to you, and so you notice it.
For other folks, their mind is not a tune, and so they won’t notice it at all, And that is the interesting challenge of listening to a film, especially for the first time, there’s so much that you can miss, the mind becoming attuned to the details of first experience. I can’t imagine that being particularly easy at all.

TR:
Definitely not easy, it will take some real practice. Personally, I’ll start with a film that I’m already familiar with. Of course, not all films pay as much atttention to sound, but this exercise could probably be done with a lot of films.

The worst possible outcome, I revisit some familiar content again.
But the potential benefit could be additional access and perspective as well as another way to explore the world.

Estevan:
I don’t imagine the sound designer is having to put in a lot of nuance or detail into the sound design. But then some films they absolutely may be doing that. And so there actually may be a lot there to find and to listen for.

TR in Conversation with Estevan:
so what are some common examples of things that sound designers put in that can help interpret a story? There’s the obvious , that creepy music that comes on when something’s about to happen. What are some things that we could recognize?

Estevan:
Well, the first thing that came to mind right now, which is really, really silly, but you almost have to get it out of the way, is the trope, kind of the inside joke from sound designers, which is the Wilhelm scream that is put into probably hundreds of films at this point. I don’t know if you’ve heard of the Wilhelm scream?

TR:
You may not recognize the name, but I’m sure many of you heard it.

Estevan:
I believe there’s some 1950s film Western, and in this scene, some cowboy is shot off of his horse. He falls off and he screams.

— Wihlelm Scream

That scream has been resampled probably hundreds of times and used in so many films.

TR:
It’s not just westerns.

— Transition
— Sound of door slowly opening
— Ominous scary ambience
— Slow footsteps

TR:
Over the years the scream could be heard in all sorts of genres.

AD: A seven foot green creature with scalely skin with huge red eyes and a mouth filled with sharp fangs enters the Reid My Mind Radio studio.
The creature approaches Thomas bearing it’s fangs and raises it’s hands with nails as sharp and long as machetes.

— Monster grunt

TR:
… Sci fi, comedy…
(Fearfully)
Who is there?What do you want?
Oh my , no, no, no!

— Monster roar
— Slashing sound
— Wilhelm Scream.
— Sound of ripping, crunching and tearing apart.

— Transition

Estevan:
For traditional horror structures, there’s emphasis of silence or quiet tones before climax.
It’s something we noticed where the person is walking down the dark hallway, and previously, where we heard loud environmental sounds, room tones. All of a sudden we no longer hear that. All of a sudden, we’re hearing maybe an exaggerated silence or a soft tone, and that’s how we anticipate that it’s trying to lead to something.

TR:
Good news everybody, I’m okay!

The sound design plays a part in how we react. It’s what causes you to talk back to the screen.

Girl you better run, he’s right behind you. Run, run! Augh dang!

Estevan:
And then there are less obvious scenes where you could re watch something and be like, oh, wait a minute, maybe those sounds we heard just a moment ago were relating to this. I imagine that could happen in some films.

TR:
I remember watching a movie where a person was hit by a train.
It wasn’t until that moment where I recalled hearing the train off in the distance at the beginning of the scene.
The subtle sound of the train was a foreshadowing of what was soon to come.

Estevan:
yeah, that’s a good example, and it’s reminding me of a film I saw. They had some sound design that I would describe as very organic, meaning it didn’t clearly sound like some sort of synthesized sound. It also wasn’t really meant to represent a synthesized sound. It sounded like objects moving in a space. Think of how wind chimes have kind of this smooth but kind of moving sound to it, like one chime followed by another.
I would say initially, you may or may not notice it to some extent as a part of the environment, but as the film continued, you would notice some emphasis on it during some moments, and you’d realize, oh, it’s that sound again, but in the scene, they were not visually showing what it is. It was meant to represent something, but I don’t necessarily know what the director’s intent was.

I think it was a good example of the director and sound designer communicating something which, in my opinion, I think that it was mostly communicating feeling. I found myself super intrigued by, like, Oh, wow. What? What is that object, you know, yeah, you know, really, really interesting. Yeah,

TR in Conversation with Estevan:
Often in a film, there are these scenes they’re putting stuff in there and, they might represent something, or maybe they don’t, but they’re there for you to sort of take, right? And I don’t necessarily think about that with audio all the time. I feel like there’s another level of enjoyment, there’s another level of even just interest right in a film that you can gather audibly.

TR:
Imagine, you’re watching a film and the story isn’t really doing it for you, but the sound, now that sort of has it’s own thing going on.

Estevan:
Yeah, without a doubt.

That’s pretty much how the recent Dune movies are for me. I’m fine with the story. I have a feeling the book is highly engaging. I find the direction of the films to be effective. They’re lovely, but I’m honestly just so entranced by the score and sound design that I just really enjoy listening to it. And there are films where I will just buy it, because I really enjoy listening.

TR:
To be clear, Estevan is referring to both the music of the film or the sound track and the sound design.

Estevan:
You can buy the score for these films. You can’t buy the sound design, and I absolutely hate that. There are some films where the marriage between the two to me is so special, so beautiful, but you cannot gain access to the sound design. If I could listen to some films with zero dialog. There’s some films I only want to hear the sounds and the score. So sometimes I will struggle to ignore the dialog, but I’m really trying to hear the sound design and the score.

TR in Conversation with Estevan:
I wonder if there are any examples that we can maybe walk through to illustrate some of the sound design that goes on.

Estevan:
Sure, yeah. So here we have Star Wars Episode Four from 1977 Walter Murch worked on this. He’s the one who was interviewed in conversations with Walter Murch.

This is when Vader comes in. A comment in YouTube says that Mark Hamill asked George whether or not this scene needed more exposition, this is supposedly hamills quote. Aren’t you going to cut to two characters saying, Who is that? That’s the Dark Lord of the Sith, because Hamill wasn’t sure that the audience would understand that this was a bad guy. And so this is a really interesting scene, because it’s the sound and the music that helps us understand that.

— Beep! “Take 1″ Film clabboard!
— clip here…

TR:
George in this case is of course George Lucas, director of Star Wars.

George replied and I quote” Bruh, mind you’re business and watch this.”
Ok, maybe not a quote. But I bet he was thinking it.

Estevan:
George felt that yeah, just the sound in the visual would tell the audience enough of how to interpret it. What do you think you heard when Vader enters the screen? What are your thoughts?

TR in Conversation with Estevan:
I heard a laser type of sound thing going on there, even that breathing, Darth Vader’s breathing, it doesn’t sound like it’s friendly.
The footsteps I hear approaching
There was all that explosions going on, There was that gong sound, and then all those horns,
so something’s happened. And again, with the footsteps,
But then there was another tone that’s sort of underneath that where I’m feeling that, I was drawn to that.

Estevan:
That, tone underneath comes in when Vader is walking into the scene, and it’s a low rumble. And so films will often use, especially when in the theater use a low rumble for emphasis. In the beginning, we don’t feel a lot of low frequency rumble there, but as soon as Vader comes in, the lasers get quiet. We we have emphasis on his breathing, footsteps and a low rumble. And so that was helping to communicate a tone without the need for any additional dialog to tell you how to feel about it,

TR:
So instead of that ominous music we replace it with this:
— Cartoon music

And we change Darth Vaders footsteps to this…
— A child stepping in bouncy, squeaky slippers.
TR:
Laughs! I’m having way too much fun.

Estevan:
Here’s an interesting scene from Punch Drunk Love, but I think it’s a little bit complicated. I enjoy it because it’s showing a bit of the range of how to work with musical score and sound. So in this scene, we’re going to hear an instrument called a harmonium, which is a type of organ instrument playing a melody. We’re going to hear a lot of environmental sounds, which is part of the sound design. And the sound design and the score become a little bit blurry at some point. Iin this scene, a man in a blue suit and a woman in red dress or leaving a restaurant and walking to a parking lot to go to their car at night.
A big 18 wheeler is driving by them and their breaks make a sound that follows the melody of the score that you hear. And I always found this to be a really fascinating type of decision, and it’s subtle, like, I don’t really think anyone watching this movie for the first time would have any reason to notice. I really enjoyed the score so that’s why I may have noticed it the first time.
I realized, oh the scene is communicating in this almost fantasy way that this 18 wheeler is making music due to the way it’s driving.

— Beep! “Take 2″ Film clabboard!
— Scene from Punch Drunk Love

Estevan”
It’s an interesting detail it’s like they made it sound like it’s in the background. It’s not a real instrument. They probably just sampled a truck, and then changed the pitches and played it on the keyboard.

TR in Conversation with Estevan:
Are there certain filmmakers that are known to do this more than others, or is it just sort of random that you notice this?

Estevan:
I don’t think there’s enough there doing it. I think the reason none of filmmakers may be doing it is either there’s budgetary constraints, time constraints, certain limits on that type of creative pursuit. The sort of filmmakers that have done it more consistently would be David Lynch who had the practice of doing that regularly in his films. And then I think often people working with Hans Zimmer. I don’t know if Hans Zimmer brings his own sound design team, but you hire Hans Zimmer for particular things, it’s going to be some sort of big project a lot of times. And so the sound design is often working with him.

The director of Blade Runner is the same directors is dune. Denis Villeneuve. I would say he also is often trying to merge sound design and score.

There’s other directors who’ve done it. They’re just doing it for one particular film and so it’s not obvious to me as to whether or not this is a theme in their work.

TR:
For those interested in learning more about sound design whether for access or just because, Estevan has some suggestions.

Estevan”
There are other books about listening and about appreciating sound, which then connects to the topic of film or anything that deals with sound. I’m not going to recommend a book. But rather, I think if you look into any of the writings or teachings, including YouTube videos on individuals such as Pauline Oliveros, who promotes this idea that she calls deep listening. I think that helps a person understand a bit of the philosophy or way to listen. And I think that can inform any part of your life when it comes to the process of listening.

And then you have individuals such as John Cage, who also promoted a bit of the philosophy of us trying to understand or reconsider what music is, and what is this thing we call music. So if you look up any of their teachings or interviews in which they get to express their ideas, I think those two individuals provide a foundational questions about sound and music,.

TR:
Anyone Interested in a career in sound design?

Estevan:
It should be acknowledged that AI is taking up a lot of the oxygen right now, which is a bit of a shame. But putting aside generative AI, there’s an industry of just creating sounds, creating samples, providing it to people. There are people out there who do field recording, who just go out to locations, record environments and share them or even sell them. And there’s individuals like me, and I think I’m hyper niche category where I’ve enjoyed the practice of just listening to recordings of places and things. So I think there’s a lot there when it comes to making sounds, crafting sounds for musicians, and even getting some music software, and then designing sounds in that music software, saving these presets, selling presets.

TR:
As we know all too well, AI is coming for every industry.
— Willhelm scream

Estevan
t’s definitely another conversation that I’ve spent some years discussing it, but I’m still trying to really muster up the energy to continue finding new words, yeah,

TR in Conversation with Estevan:
It sucks. There you go. There’s two words,

The two laught.

TR:
Big shout out to Estevan Carlos Benson. You can listen to some of his music and find out more about his projects at his website, EstevanCarlos.com.

Estevan:
spelled E, S, T, E, V, as in Victor, a, n, C, A, R, L, O, s.com.

TR in Conversation with Estevan:
People who take the time to come on to the podcast and they share their experiences, I gotta let you know…

— You’re Official

Music begins: A piano synth loop that leads to a strong kick and driving beat.
TR:
In 2014 I introduced you to this podcast | It’s a passion project, that means all love, no cash
Over 10 years bringing you nothing but facts | my goal for this has always been impact!
I invite a guest, take a topic tailor it just for you | a disability perspective always shining through
Thanks to my guest for sharing your time with me, You’re official | Reid My Mind Radio Family… RAH!

Official, uh uh official | Official, uh uh official !
Official, uh uh official | Official, uh uh official
You’re Official! | Reid My Mind Radio Family!

Official, uh uh official | Official, uh uh official !
Now whose official? | Official, uh uh official
Estevan carlos benson
You’re Official! Reid My Mind Radio Family!

For all y’all thinking, hmmm, what can I do| I wrote a checklist so you can become official too
Sample: “One” Chuck D!
You just can’t be down if you don’t follow or subscribe | That’s the number 1 way to join this tribe!
Sample: “Two” Chuck D!
Shout it out! Tell all your friends and your foes | That’s the way we help eachother and the podcast grows
Sample: “Three” Chuck D!
Buy merch, shirt or hoodie for yourself or yourboo | Now look at that, you’re official too! Woo!

Official, uh uh official | Official, uh uh official !
Now whose official? | Official, uh uh official
You’re Official! Reid My Mind Radio Family!

Official, uh uh official | Official, uh uh official
I said who’s official? | Official, uh uh official
(Applause)
You’re Official! | Reid My Mind Radio Family!

There it is!

Follow or subscribe wherever you get podcasts!
You know how we do, right?
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And so there’s never, ever, ever, ever any confusion
That’s R to the E I
Sample: D! And that’s me in the place to be! Slick Rick
Like my last name!
— Reid My Mind Radio Outro
Peace

Estevan”
I appreciate it. Yeah. I really do.
— Audio from Batman

Even though there are lots of sound libraries with pre recorded sounds for all sorts of situations, films with larger budgets continue to customize their sound design.

TR in Conversation with Estevan:
Again, the idea behind this episode is to help ad users really think more about audio and get more from a film.
So think about how we can interpret what’s taking place on screen, via the audio.
So I want to know about some of the basics that we should be listening for when we’re consuming visual content.

Like that creaking door. Something’s about to happen. Get out of there.

(The two laugh)

TR:
I know, who am I to talk about a creeking door. That was my actual door in the intro.
But the joke was right there.

Estevan:
So we’re asking, what is the sound designer doing that they hope the audience may listen for. And I think what’s interesting about that question is normally, the sound designer recognizes and acknowledges some of the detail they’re putting in there will not be heard at a conscious level.

Our brains or mind has to filter out a lot of information that we’re dealing with as we’re navigating spaces and experiences. So when we’re listening to anything, we’re not really able, nor necessarily should we be hearing every single thing all at once. So the sound designer has to work with that in mind they’re going to craft something, and the audience may sort of hear it consciously, but sort of won’t hear it.
So the audience can tell ourselves to listen to everything. I think one way to do that is to see if your mind can focus on the quiet sounds during moments that are loud.

TR:
We’re talking about active listening.

Estevan:
For example, you may have someone like shouting and yelling, but there may be quiet sounds in the background or in between that might tell you some of the story. That might be the subtlety that the director and sound designer are trying to express. I find in some scenes where there’s a lot of activity multiple people talking over each other and things like that, there can be subtle sounds in between here and there that are helping to express the scene, but easy to overlook because you’re trying to listen to the dialog. And then I think other sounds we sometimes may easily overlook that one can’t pay attention to, are the environmental sounds, the tones of a space, room tones and so forth, that can help give you context. And are not just there to tell you a place, but may also be there to represent a mood sometimes.

TR:
My home office used to be right off the kitchen on the main floor. I was very aware of any cars or trucks that drove into my driveway which was on the opposite side of the house.
This is active listening in my daily life.

Something I think I unknowingly trained myself to do because I want to knowif someone is entering my space. Eh yo, back up son!

I’m certain many of you in the family are more experienced active listeners.

TR in Conversation with Estevan:
I’m hoping that this is helpful, because there’s so much that we miss from a film that’s going on visually, and it would be nice, like, if there’s more to pick up from that, again, just beyond the AD.

Estevan:
That’s exactly it, that that’s what you’re describing. The car in the driveway sounds like it’d be a little bit subtle. You’re describing how your mind and our minds in general, can be attuned to certain things. So the issue isn’t so much that the car pulling into the driveway may be exceptionally loud. It may not be, but your mind is able to observe it, and then it is set up in so that upon. Observation, it becomes an important detail to you, and so you notice it.
For other folks, their mind is not a tune, and so they won’t notice it at all, And that is the interesting challenge of listening to a film, especially for the first time, there’s so much that you can miss, the mind becoming attuned to the details of first experience. I can’t imagine that being particularly easy at all.

TR:
Definitely not easy, it will take some real practice. Personally, I’ll start with a film that I’m already familiar with. Of course, not all films pay as much atttention to sound, but this exercise could probably be done with a lot of films.

The worst possible outcome, I revisit some familiar content again.
But the potential benefit could be additional access and perspective as well as another way to explore the world.

Estevan:
I don’t imagine the sound designer is having to put in a lot of nuance or detail into the sound design. But then some films they absolutely may be doing that. And so there actually may be a lot there to find and to listen for.

TR in Conversation with Estevan:
so what are some common examples of things that sound designers put in that can help interpret a story? There’s the obvious , that creepy music that comes on when something’s about to happen. What are some things that we could recognize?

Estevan:
Well, the first thing that came to mind right now, which is really, really silly, but you almost have to get it out of the way, is the trope, kind of the inside joke from sound designers, which is the Wilhelm scream that is put into probably hundreds of films at this point. I don’t know if you’ve heard of the Wilhelm scream?

TR:
You may not recognize the name, but I’m sure many of you heard it.

Estevan:
I believe there’s some 1950s film Western, and in this scene, some cowboy is shot off of his horse. He falls off and he screams. That scream has been resampled probably hundreds of times and used in so many films.

Estevan:
Every new film you see, especially if it’s an action film, you can attune your ears to hear it.

TR:
It’s not just westerns.

— Sound of door slowly opening
— Ominous scary music

Over the years the scream could be heard in all sorts of genres.
AD: A seven foot green creature with scalely skin with huge red eyes and a mouth filled with sharp fangs enters the Reid My Mind Radio studio.
The creature approaches Thomas bearing it’s fangs and raises it’s hands with nails as sharp and long as machetes.
TR:
… Sci fi, comedy…
(Fearfully)
Who is there?What do you want?
Oh my , no, no, no!
— Wilhelm Scream.

– Promo –
TR:
Reid My Mind Radio Family, onn August 27th at 2PM ET, one of our family members, Justice Shorter, is hosting Portraits & Portals – a powerful art showcase uplifting disabled artists of color and disabled disaster survivors of color.

(Filtered Voice) I’m one of the artists who was paired with a disaster survivor to help tell their story.

It takes place online on August 27 at 2 PM ET.
Hosted by The Partnership & Seeded Ground.
You can register at : https://tinyurl.com/portraitsportals.
Or, head on over to this episodes blog post at ReidMyMind.com and I’ll link you to the registration.

Back to the Episode
– End Promo –

Estevan:
For traditional horror structures, there’s emphasis of silence or quiet tones before climax.
It’s something we noticed where the person is walking down the dark hallway, and previously, where we heard loud environmental sounds, room tones. All of a sudden we no longer hear that. All of a sudden, we’re hearing maybe an exaggerated silence or a soft tone, and that’s how we anticipate that it’s trying to lead to something.

TR:
I’m okay everybody! (Giggles)
I just wanted to bring Estevan’s example to life.
The sound design plays a part in how we react. It’s what causes you to talk back to the screen.

Girl you better run, he’s right behind you. Run, run! Augh dang, get up.
I wonder if there’s a name for the inevitable fall when a woman is being chased on screen?

Estevan:
And then there are less obvious scenes where you could re watch something and be like, oh, wait a minute, maybe those sounds we heard just a moment ago were relating to this. I imagine that could happen in some films.

TR:
I remember watching a movie where a person was hit by a train. It wasn’t until that moment where I recalled hearing the train off in the distance at the beginning of the scene.
The subtle sound of the train was a foreshadowing of what was soon to come.

Estevan:
yeah, that’s a good example, and it’s reminding me of a film I saw.

They had some sound design that I would describe as very organic, meaning it didn’t clearly sound like some sort of synthesized sound. It also wasn’t really meant to represent a synthesized sound.
It sounded like objects moving in a space. Think of how wind chimes have kind of this smooth but kind of moving sound to it, like one chime followed by another.
I would say initially, you may or may not notice it to some extent as a part of the environment, but as the film continued, you would notice some emphasis on it during some moments, and you’d realize, oh, it’s that sound again, but in the scene, they were not visually showing what it is. It was meant to represent something, but I don’t necessarily know what the director’s intent was.
I think it was a good example of the director and sound designer communicating something which, in my opinion, I think that it was mostly communicating feeling.

I found myself super intrigued by, like, Oh, wow. What? What is that object, you know, yeah, you know, really, really interesting. Yeah,

TR in Conversation with Estevan:
Often in a film, there are these scenes they’re putting stuff in there and, they might represent something, or maybe they don’t, but they’re there for you to sort of take, right? And I don’t necessarily think about that with audio all the time. I feel like there’s another level of enjoyment, there’s another level of even just interest right in a film that you can gather audibly.

TR:
Imagine, you’re watching a film and the story isn’t really doing it for you, but the sound, now that sort of has it’s own thing going on.

Estevan:
Yeah, without a doubt.

The recent dune movies are for me okay. I’m fine with the story. I have a feeling the book is highly engaging.
I find the direction of the films to be effective. They’re lovely, but I’m honestly just so entranced by the score and sound design that I just really enjoy listening to it. And there are films where I will just buy it, because I really enjoy listening.

TR:
To be clear, Estevan is referring to both the music of the film or the sound track and the sound design.

Estevan:
You can buy the score for these films. You can’t buy the sound design, and I absolutely hate that. There are some films where the marriage between the two to me is so special, so beautiful, but you cannot gain access to the sound design. If I could listen to some films with zero dialog. There’s some films I only want to hear the sounds and the score. So sometimes I will struggle to ignore the dialog, but I’m really trying to hear the sound design and the score.

TR in Conversation with Estevan:
I wonder if there are any examples that we can maybe walk through to illustrate some of the sound design that goes on.

Estevan:
Sure, yeah.

Estevan:
So here we have Star Wars Episode Four from 1977 Walter Murch worked on this. He’s the one who was interviewed in conversations with Walter Murch.

This is when Vader comes in. A comment in YouTube says that Mark Hamill asked George whether or not this scene needed more exposition, this is supposedly hamills quote. Aren’t you going to cut to two characters saying, Who is that? That’s the Dark Lord of the Sith, because Hamill wasn’t sure that the audience would understand that this was a bad guy. And so this is a really interesting scene, because it’s the sound and the music that helps us understand that.

— Film clabboard “And Action”
— clip here…

TR:
George in this case is of course George Lucas, director of Star Wars.

George replied and I quote” Bruh, mind you’re business and watch this.”
Ok, maybe not a quote. But I bet he was thinking it.

Estevan:
George felt that yeah, just the sound in the visual would tell the audience enough of how to interpret it. What do you think you heard when Vader enters the screen? What are your thoughts?

TR in Conversation with Estevan:
I heard a laser type of sound thing going on there, even that breathing, Darth Vader’s breathing, it doesn’t sound like it’s friendly.
The footsteps I hear approaching
There was all that explosions going on, There was that gong sound, and then all those horns,
so something’s happened. And again, with the footsteps,
But then there was another tone that’s sort of underneath that where I’m feeling that, I was drawn to that.

Estevan:
That, tone underneath comes in when Vader is walking into the scene, and it’s a low rumble. And so films will often use, especially when in the theater use a low rumble for emphasis. In the beginning, we don’t feel a lot of low frequency rumble there, but as soon as Vader comes in, the lasers get quiet. We we have emphasis on his breathing, footsteps and a low rumble. And so that was helping to communicate a tone without the need for any additional dialog to tell you how to feel about it,

TR:
So just imagine instead of the low drone, the ominous footstepps, we replace all that with
— three stooges music
— squeaky

It’s a whole different vibe!

Estevan:
Yeah, yeah, absolutely. You wouldn’t necessarily know what to think.
You might even think like, oh, is Vader here to help, it could have been some other way to interpret it.

And I think that little rumble also really, really helps, because especially when you feel it physically, it just gets your attention.
So I think that’s a good classic scene. I believe Walter Murch was involved with that one. Okay, I can give you another example.

Here’s an interesting scene from punch drunk love, but I think it’s a little bit complicated. I enjoy it because it’s showing a bit of the range of how to work with musical score and sound. So in this scene, we’re going to hear an instrument called a harmonium, which is a type of organ instrument playing a melody. We’re going to hear a lot of environmental sounds, which is part of the sound design. And the sound design and the score become a little bit blurry at some point. Iin this scene, a man in a blue suit and a woman in red dress or leaving a restaurant and walking to a parking lot to go to their car at night.
Estevan” 58:46
A big 18 wheeler is driving by them and their breaks make a sound that follows the melody of the score that you hear. And I always found this to be a really fascinating type of decision, and it’s subtle, like, I don’t really think anyone watching this movie for the first time would have any reason to notice. I really enjoyed the score so that’s why I may have noticed it the first time.
I realized, oh the scene is communicating in this almost fantasy way that this 18 wheeler is making music due to the way it’s driving.

— Audio

Estevan”
It’s an interesting detail it’s like they made it sound like it’s in the background. It’s not a real instrument. They probably just sampled a truck, and then changed the pitches and played it on the keyboard.

TR in Conversation with Estevan:
Are there certain filmmakers that are known to do this more than others, or is it just sort of random that you notice this?

Estevan:
I don’t think there’s enough there doing it. I think the reason none of filmmakers may be doing it is either there’s budgetary constraints, time constraints, certain limits on that type of creative pursuit. The sort of filmmakers that have done it more consistently would be David Lynch who had the practice of doing that regularly in his films. And then I think often people working with Hans Zimmer. I don’t know if Hans Zimmer brings his own sound design team, but you hire Hans Zimmer for particular things, it’s going to be some sort of big project a lot of times. And so the sound design is often working with him.

The director of Blade Runner is the same directors is dune. Denis Villeneuve. I would say he also is often trying to merge sound design and score.

There’s other directors who’ve done it. They’re just doing it for one particular film and so it’s not obvious to me as to whether or not this is a theme in their work.

TR:
For those interested in learning more about sound design whether for access or just because Estevan has some suggestions.

Estevan”
There are other books about listening and about appreciating sound, which then connects to the topic of film or anything that deals with sound. I’m not going to recommend a book. But rather, I think if you look into any of the writings or teachings, including YouTube videos on individuals such as Pauline Oliveros, who promotes this idea that she calls deep listening. I think that helps a person understand a bit of the philosophy or way to listen. And I think that can inform any part of your life when it comes to the process of listening.

And then you have individuals such as John Cage, who also promoted a bit of the philosophy of us trying to understand or reconsider what music is, and what is this thing we call music. So if you look up any of their teachings or interviews in which they get to express their ideas, I think those two individuals provide a foundational questions about sound and music,.

TR in Conversation with Estevan:
What are some other careers for folks thinking about sound like, whether it be sound design, obviously musician composing, but are there other things that I might not be thinking of that sound design comes into play?

Estevan:
It should be acknowledged that AI is taking up a lot of the oxygen right now, which is a bit of a shame. But putting aside generative AI, there’s an industry of just creating sounds, creating samples, providing it to people. There are people out there who do field recording, who just go out to locations, record environments and share them or even sell them. And there’s individuals like me, and I think I’m hyper niche category where I’ve enjoyed the practice of just listening to recordings of places and things. So I think there’s a lot there when it comes to making sounds, crafting sounds for musicians, and even getting some music software, and then designing sounds in that music software, saving these presets, selling presets.

TR:
As we know all too well, AI is coming for every industry.
— Willhelm scream

Estevan
t’s definitely another conversation that I’ve spent some years discussing it, but I’m still trying to really muster up the energy to continue finding new words, yeah,

TR in Conversation with Estevan:
It sucks. There you go. There’s two words,

TR:
Big shout out to Estevan Carlos Benson. You can listen to some of his music and find out more about his projects at his website, EstevanCarlos.com.

Estevan:
spelled E, S, T, E, V, as in Victor, a, n, C, A, R, L, O, s.com.

TR in Conversation with Estevan:
People who take the time to come on to the podcast and they share their experiences, I gotta let you know…

— You’re Official

Music begins: A piano synth loop that leads to a strong kick and driving beat.
TR:
In 2014 I introduced you to this podcast | It’s a passion project, that means all love, no cash
Over 10 years bringing you nothing but facts | my goal for this has always been impact!
I invite a guest, take a topic tailor it just for you | a disability perspective always shining through
Thanks to my guest for sharing your time with me, You’re official | Reid My Mind Radio Family… RAH!

Official, uh uh official | Official, uh uh official !
Official, uh uh official | Official, uh uh official
You’re Official! | Reid My Mind Radio Family!

Official, uh uh official | Official, uh uh official !
Now whose official? | Official, uh uh official
Guest Here
You’re Official! Reid My Mind Radio Family!

For all y’all thinking, hmmm, what can I do| I wrote a checklist so you can become official too
Sample: “One” Chuck D!
You just can’t be down if you don’t follow or subscribe | That’s the number 1 way to join this tribe!
Sample: “Two” Chuck D!
Shout it out! Tell all your friends and your foes | That’s the way we help eachother and the podcast grows
Sample: “Three” Chuck D!
Buy merch, shirt or hoodie for yourself or yourboo | Now look at that, you’re official too! Woo!

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Now whose official? | Official, uh uh official
You’re Official! Reid My Mind Radio Family!

Official, uh uh official | Official, uh uh official
I said who’s official? | Official, uh uh official
(Applause)
You’re Official! | Reid My Mind Radio Family!

There it is!

Follow or subscribe wherever you get podcasts!
You know how we do, right?
Transcripts and more are at ReidMyMind.com
And so there’s never, ever, ever, ever any confusion
That’s R to the E I
Sample: D! And that’s me in the place to be! Slick Rick
Like my last name!
— Reid My Mind Radio Outro
Peace

Hide the transcript

TR:
Hey Y’all.

I try to produce this podcast several weeks in advance of the release. I don’t always have as much lead time as I’d like.
In this particular case, I did.

With the latest police murder of George Floyd and the world wide protest that followed, I don’t feel comfortable releasing an episode without acknowledging this senseless and shameful killing.

I love producing this podcast and I truly think what you’re about to hear is a great episode,
but as a Black man I can’t help but feel like my focus should be on fighting for change. Truth is though, it’s not just Black people who should be fighting.
It’s all of our responsibility and if I’m being honest, I think the burden should be less on the Black community.
If you have the urge to inform me that there are white people fighting, please don’t. I know that. I’d ask you to consider your own role as I’m trying to figure out mine.

Not acknowledging the pain just felt like it would add even more.

Rest in Peace & Power to Mr. George Floyd and the rest of those murdered by the Police.

Thank you Reid My Mind Radio Family and I hope you understand why that was necessary.

Now, let’s shift gears and get into what I think is a goodie!

Audio: Sounds of airport fades into the inside of a plane.

From the planes PA System…
Flight Attendant:

Good day passengers.
Welcome aboard flight 99 to a better place!

Inflight service will be coming around soon with snacks!
In the meantime, please sit back, relax and enjoy your trip.
We now have a message from the captain.

From the planes PA System:

Music begins…

TR:

What’s up Reid My Mind Radio Family!

Welcome aboard the podcast bringing you compelling people impacted by all degrees of vision loss from low vision to total blindness.

Every now and then, when inspired, I bring you stories from my own experience as a man adjusting to becoming Blind as an adult.

My name is Thomas Reid and I’m not only your pilot, but I’m traveling on this journey with you.

Now if you are new to blindness and have some reservations about this flight I can tell you the ground control has approved us for takeoff. the forecasts a mix of clear skies with some possible thunderstorms. We are expected to hit a bit of turbulence along the way, but don’t worry, I got you!

Wheels up baby, let’s go!

Audio: Reid My Mind Radio Intro

TR:

In 2017 & 18 , this podcast featured profiles of each of the Holman Prize winners. If you haven’t checked out those episodes I definitely want to encourage you to go back and give them a listen.

While I decided not to produce Holman prize episodes in 2019, early this year, I came across one of the 2019 winners, Dr. Mona Minkara. She’s a Bio Engineering professor at North Eastern University and the host and producer of Planes, Trains and Canes.

MM:

Which is a documentary series on YouTube showing me traveling to five different cities around the world and using only public transportation on my own.

[TR in conversation with MM:]

So the first show that I started to watch, that was your first one when you were headed out of Boston to and going to South Africa. I’m trying to figure out, what is this feeling that I have. I said wow, I think this is a little anxiety. I’m like wow, this is good though, this is really good.

My podcast, I really like to reach out to those who are adjusting to being Blind. That’s my target audience. And so I’m thinking they’re going to feel what I feel but for different reasons. I travel independently, not necessarily like you’re doing. I’m watching because I thought about doing some of the things you’re doing where you’re walking through an airport and not getting the guide and I’m like wow this is exactly how I thought I would do it but I wasn’t sure if there was a different way. People who are new to blindness need to see it because I think some of the stuff like the constant questioning that you’re doing, the constant asking and figuring it out, people need to know that that is ok. And I love that!
So that’s why I contacted you.

MM:

That so awesome to hear you say that, so awesome because I’m going to be honest with you, I feel like this project actually even pushed me even more than I normally push myself. I would have never risked on my own a two hour layover in Atlanta going by myself to the gate. I would have never risked that on my own. But I did for the sake of this project. Like uh, we’ll see what happens.

[TR in conversation with MM:]

Oh my god, I’m so glad you said that because people need to know that. people definitely need to know that

MM:

I completely agree. And then what’s the worst thing that could happen. I think what’s really important to discuss with something like this is being flexible. I was willing and ok and at peace with getting lost. I told myself Mona it’s ok if I get lost, it’s ok if it takes me like three hours … it’s ok!

[TR in conversation with MM:]

The other thing that I like about what you’re doing and we’re going to get in to the questions in just a second but…

TR:

Ok, fine, I was excited! I don’t usually include me geeking out over my guests but it definitely happens.
I knew this would be a comfortable conversation from the start.

[TR in conversation with MM:]

How are you doing Mona?

MM:

Good, how are you Thomas?

[TR in conversation with MM:]

Good, I’m good. Do you prefer Dr. Minkara? My bad.

MM:

No, no not at all. I’ve been told I probably should but no!

TR:

I’m not really into formalities, but I realize she earned that PHD and. When she’s on that campus, at those conferences put some respect on her name! Especially considering the early advice given to her mother when learning Mona would be Blind.

MM:

I had a doctor tell my mom that it wasn’t going to be worth spending a penny on my education. The bright future that I had was over with that sentence. But it wasn’t. (laughs) My life is great! (Laughs)

TR:

From an early age, Mona was interested in pursuing science and knew she wanted to be a professor.

Audio: Magic School Bus/Bill Nye

MM:

even though a lot of times I got people discouraging me because it wasn’t very practical for a Blind person to be a scientist.
I’m probably a scientist because of Magic School Bus and Bill Nye the Science Guy.

[TR in conversation with MM:]

Shout out to Bill Nye!

MM:

Yes! I am a PBS Kid!

Audio: PBS Kid

I think a part of who I am is I truly just follow my passion and I really value freedom and independence. That kind of carried over to Planes Trains & Canes because it was the ultimate test of my independence to allow me to have my freedom.

[TR in conversation with MM:]

What came first, was it the Holman prize or was this a dream to kind of do this?

MM:

That’s as good question a very good question. I was a judge for the first year of Holman Prize. I remember going out there and helping to judge the applicant pool and being taken by this concept. Even the story of James Holman and why these people were applying.

TR:

James Holman AKA, the Blind traveler, completed a series of solo journeys taking him to all inhabited continents.
The competition is sponsored by the San Francisco Lighthouse. $25,000
is given to each of the winners who are all legally blind and in their own way exhibit the adventurous spirit and attitude of James Holman

Following that first year, Mona had a thought.

MM:

I’d like to apply one day. What is it that I like to do? I realized, I really love public transportation.

Public transportation is a tool that is under appreciated by a lot of people but it’s a tool for me that really gives me freedom.

TR:

Currently living in Boston, the third city where she’s lived on her own as an adult. Each of these cities having a completely different public transportation system.

MM:

And then it just clicked, the concept for Planes Trains and Canes. Traveling on my own using public transportation.

TR:

In addition, she sought out cities on different continents which meant diverse cultures.

MM:

I didn’t have a deeply scientific method other than I also wanted to go to cities that I didn’t speak the language. It’s another barrier right. You feel like you might be more lost in an non English speaking place.
It was fascinating, you can see in my upcoming episode for Istanbul, you don’t really need the language. It was mind blowing for me to realize how easy it was to still navigate in a city like Istanbul or Tokyo.

[TR in conversation with MM:]

Laughs… It’s funny to hear the Scientist say that there was no scientific method about… (Laughing)

MM:

Laughs… I mean I knew London
[TR in conversation with MM:]

From the videos, it doesn’t seem like you spend that much time there. How much time do you spend in each place?

MM:

It was like four days.

[TR in conversation with MM:]

To go all the way to South Africa for 4 days is like damn!

MM:

I know, I had to squeeze them with my new job it was insane. I just started being a professor.

TR:

In addition to Istanbul & Tokyo that’s four days in Johannesburg, South Africa, London and Singapore.
While Planes Trains & Canes is all about independent travel, making the videos requires a team.

MM:

I remember thinking like 3 years ago that whoever I did this with I have to have a Videographer that was somebody I could easily travel with , a solid person. And somebody who’s really not going to break character.

NG:
Hello

[TR in conversation with NG:]

Hello Natalie?

NG:

Hi, Thomas, how are you?

[TR in conversation with NG:]

Good, how are you doing?

NG:

Good!

TR:

During my initial conversation with Mona, she suggested I speak to her entire team. And I did. First up Natalie Guzi.

NG:

I’m a Camera Woman for Planes Trains & Canes. I’m 23 and this was my first time doing anything camera work related.

[TR in conversation with NG:]

That was one of my first questions. (Laughs)

NG:

(Laughs)
Cool, ok!

[TR in conversation with NG:]

From my understanding you were a friend or a co-worker of Mona’s?

NG:

Co-worker turned really good friend

So, I went to school to be a technical writing major and I saw an open position. One of those pull tabs job posts with a number and email. Mona had put up signs for that. the interview went well I guess. Laughs…

TR:
In a way, working as an Access Assistant for Mona, helped Natalie develop one of the most important skills for the videographer role in Planes Trains & Canes.

[TR in conversation with NG:]

You ask any Blind person and they’re pretty much going to have a similar experience about being with someone who is sighted going somewhere and then having the person who is sighted being talked to as if the Blind person wasn’t there. When did you first experience that ?

NG:

The first time I experienced that was at a Chemistry conference, like an international conference where I was Mona’s access assistant. it must have been like just checking into a hotel. it’s under Mona’s name, Mona’s the PhD Scientist, I’m the 23 year old, but the person checking her in was looking at me.

TR:
This experience isn’t exclusive to those who are Blind. I hear the same from others with different disabilities too. There’s two components; first, directing the conversation away from the person with a disability and then there’s the gaze. Focusing the eye contact towards the non-disabled person.
Now, check the technique!

Audio: Musical intro…

NG:

How we work together with that kind of an issue is that I would just make eye contact with Mona so if you’re trying to look at me my gaze, then that’s going to get redirected to her. So they know where I’m looking and they should be looking. Sometimes people would pick up that and make that adjustment. Sometimes not. Or if we were talking and there was no counter between us then I would almost step over to their side so I was also facing Mona.

TR:

As the videographer, Natalie has to make sure it remains about Mona.

NG:

I tried to be as fly on the wall as possible. (Laughs) Which is a little bit hard. It wasn’t like an undercover operation. (Laughs) It was like someone following a blind woman with a camera. There were a lot of like stares and or questions about why the camera. people addressing me that I shouldn’t film even though Mona was the subject.

[TR in conversation with NG:]

They didn’t know that she was a part of it they thought you were just following her or something?

NG:

Yeh. They would like wave their hand in front of the camera.

[TR in conversation with MM:]

And then you would have to explain things?

NG:

It depended on the situation. That’s a great question too. I’m remembering a time when at a train station in Johannesburg. I was trying to capture footage of Mona buying her train ticket. One of the staff there came up and told me I couldn’t be filming although all I really wanted to do was film the interaction of Mona buying a ticket. No, no, like here’s the business card we’re filming a documentary. We’re not mapping out your train system for any weird purpose.

[TR in conversation with NG:]

That seems stressful to me. Can you talk about that.

NG:

Sure. By nature I lean towards wanting to make people happy and feel comfortable and welcomed. And when you’re walking around with a camera and people don’t know why that’s not really a possibility.
It’s difficult having those eyes and feeling those emotions from other people coming your way and having to remind yourself of the situation and the mission in that moment.

[TR in conversation with NG:]

Did that get easier?

NG:

We had the opportunity to go to lots of different countries and experience different cultures so it shifted every place that we went. Like people would in Istanbul, being like welcome and we love it and come to our store as we were walking by trying to get video.
In comparison, the experience in the London tube wasn’t as welcoming.

TR:

These are the things making Natalie the right person for the job.

NG:

A thick skin. You got to have that self-confidence and confidence in the mission and in the team too.
I think Mona and I’s relationship we just always have each other’s back. So I think that trust and that collaboration really was like the heart of the whole project that kept us going.

TR:

That trust could even mean stepping in and putting yourself at risk.

NG:

In Johannesburg, Mona was crossing the street and this car was taking a corner really fast. I had to jump into the street and like put my arms out. I just thought that car was going way too fast. I wanted them to see two people in the street at least like saying stop.

TR:

Mona and Natalie have the foundation making up a real team.

NG:

We kind of work together. She gave me the feedback on what worked in different situations. It was nice to have a collaborator with that too and just follow Mona’s lead.

TR:

After watching Planes Trains & Canes and then having the chance to speak with Mona, it’s apparent, what you see is what you get.

MM:

I’m pretty assertive I would say as a person, but I understand not everybody has that personality. When I’m tired and exhausted and getting off a 16 hour flight I’m not the sharpest. I’m just like excuse me (said lethargically) my energy’s low. I could be ignored more easily in that situation verses when I’m bright eyed and bushy tailed , I’m like hello!

[TR in conversation with MM:]

You’re quick not to give off any pity vibe or anything like that.

MM:

Yeh, cause I don’t want your pity. I want you to treat me like any other human being. I just happened to be Blind. Sighted people ask for directions all the time. All the time! Just adjust yourself , just a little bit by verbalizing your directions. I appreciate it, thank you!

Audio Bumper for editors

TR:

In order to win the prize enabling Mona to start her adventure she would have to first accumulate enough likes on her Holman prize entry video.

Contestant’s seeking the 25 G’s must first posts their videos to YouTube. The videos need to explain their ambition and cannot exceed 90 seconds. Mona and Natalie paired up to shoot the video with Natalie taking her first shot at editing. The video foreshadowed some of the reactions they’d eventually receive while traveling.
Audio: Clip Planes Trains & Canes Ambition Video

TR:

Winning the prize enabled them to purchase a camera and wireless
microphone.

Natalie and Mona learned more than expected from editing that first 90 second ambition video;

MM:

How much work editing would be.

[TR in conversation with MM:]

Chuckles…

TR:

Mona recruited Anxhela (Angela) Becolli
, her current Access Assistant at Northeastern.

MM:

She actually was the one who edited Johannesburg. She’s actually with me right now and…. Ok, I’m bringing her in…

AB:

I wasn’t expecting to be on the call…

[TR in conversation with AB:]

So that was your first shot at editing?

AB:

I had done editing a little bit before. In college I studied Photography in China and there I had done a few projects in videography but mainly photography. This was my first full paid project.

TR:

The thing about creating a documentary series such as Planes Trains & Canes is that you don’t know what your story is until it happens.

MM:

We recorded with no story line in mind. Recording as life unfolds in front of you and then extracting the story. So there’s an element of being able to story tell what you lived as opposed to the other way around – you are building the story and then you record the story.

You don’t know what life is going to give you.

As I was living it I remember taking mental notes like oh my God this would be really interesting to share with the audience.

TR:

Construction takes place in the editing room.

AB:

The main part is the story part. When Mona and Natalie give me the videos they also gave me this list of what they wanted the story to look like. What there idea was and what they wanted to portray to the viewers. What the most important parts were. What parts were light hearted. What parts were very specific to being Blind, to traveling and what needed to be kept in no matter what quality the video or audio was.

TR:

Mona is clearly directing all aspects of this project.

MM:

This part needs to be sped up and it’s kind of boring. I think we should add more of this part. I would say ok, let’s find music that represents the fact that I was feeling fearful or excited. I only used music connected to whatever city I was in. So all the music in the Johannesburg episode in part two, is from musicians from Johannesburg.

I personally have a certain vision for the vive and what was happening and Angela would work with me and hear what I have to say and implement it.

TR:

Creating content like this means investing real time.

AB:

If you have 40 hours of video you’re taking about 60 hours to watch the videos because you’re going to make notes, you’re going to cut things and you’ll re-watch those.

TR:

Angela was already committed to other projects so Mona had to find another editor.

Ted:

I’m Ted Jimenez, I’m the second editor put on the team to work on the new episodes; London, Istanbul, Singapore and Tokyo.

I am a self-taught editor. I worked with small independent studios before back in my home the Philippines I worked for States Sessions. It was a company that put on productions for Indy musicians in the Philippines. I did music videos for them. Promotional videos for them. Now I’m in Boston.

TR:

Where he too works at Northeastern making psychological self-help videos.

Mona decided early on that Planes Trains & Canes would not be a narrated style documentary.

Ted:

This is where Mona and I have conflicting views. I was going in with like my script saying oh Mona could you narrate this portion for us. And she is more of a fan of in the moment. I’m not going to pre-record a script that tells a story I’d rather the audience live through the story because it tells the Blind experience more naturally than if it was just said by her.

TR:

Show, not tell!

Mona’s voice over narrations that you hear in the series are sort of a means of accentuating specific moments.

Ted:

And it’s also to make it lighthearted.

MM:

I wanted comedy to be a main element. I want people to laugh while watching this because I want my message to really be heard and it’s going to be heard more through a comedic tone than through a lecturing serious tone.

TR:

Lighthearted may be the goal, but come on traveling Blind just like living Blind, you will have some encounters.

Audio: London…

[TR in conversation with MM:]

So you know where I’m going now. We’re going to London! You know the episode. (Laugh fades out) you were told that you had to register.

MM:

Yeh, yeh, yeh! I had no choice.

[TR in conversation with MM:]

So my anxiety woo, went through the roof! Mona, I’m going to tell you, I’m not that good at that situation. I’m from the Bronx Mona, I get a little aggressive. Ok! (Laugh fades out)

MM:

Laughing…

Dude, I’m going to tell you honestly, I held myself together because I didn’t even know if Natalie was videotaping me or not. But just in case she was I was like I need to make this point clear.

TR:

That point is at the core of this project; independence and freedom.

Ted:

I really like London as an example about how we kind of tell that story.

First, Mona getting off the plane into the subway. We foreshadow that Mona likes the choice of being able to ask for assistance or not ask for assistance.

In the second section of London where she’s coming from the airport to the Metro, that’s when we see that whole belief that she has of accepting or not accepting assistance.

TR:

You’re going to have to head on over to YouTube and check out the series to find out more.

Audio: Next time on Planes Trains & Canes…

TR:

Planes Trains & Canes is all about perspective.

It’s filmed from the perspective of a woman who is Blind and enjoys traveling independently and values her choice.

Along the way she interacts with people who may view the world differently.

[TR in conversation with MM:]

Wait up. You said he was nice?

MM:

I’m saying he was nice yes. (Laughing)

[TR in conversation with MM:]

Did you feel that way in the beginning? From the video, I took this guy like he was being condescending.

MM:

Oh, he was totally being condescending. I think it’s just the norm there to kind of treat people with disabilities like we are a bunch of 5 year olds. An underlying patronizing vibe!

TR:

As we each bring our individual perspective to the series, chances are there will be opposing points of view.

MM:

Did you see some of the comments that were on YouTube. Let me tell you. There was this one person who goes by SocietySister she wrote that I was selfish for not accepting help.

TR:

probably the same type of person to find the inclusion of Audio Description as a default in the series videos to be selfish.

MM:

I really wanted to make every video we create accessible to both Blind and Deaf individuals.

TR:

That’s a pretty inclusive approach giving a variety of viewers a chance to benefit from Mona’s experiences.

What did the production team take away from this experience? First, Natalie.

NG:

People are people wherever you go. They’re curious, they’ll probably want to know what’s going on if you walk into a new situation. maybe concerned if they see something new if they see something different. No matter where you go people do want to understand and to and connect. Also, trust and partnership with Mona . Just a profound sense of gratitude for working together for collaborating for trusting me to capture her experience and to be an observer.

TR:

Angela, who edited the first two episodes from Johannesburg, had hours of video to review. This gave her the chance to really see what Mona experiences.

AB:

I had a lot of moments where I went what I can’t, what why I can’t believe someone would do that. I can’t believe someone would say that. Why would someone treat you like that. Mona mentioned that Natalie was able to keep her calm, I’m the kind of person that would be like no what are you doing, you can’t do that. You can’t treat someone like that. Yeh, I’m not someone that would be able to keep her cool. (Laughs)

[TR in conversation with AB:]

Laughs.

TR:

I could see Angela and I teaming up in some bar fights together.

Ted, the editor of the remaining episodes, it should be noted is not only editing, but he’s doing all the Audio description and captioning. As someone making a career as an editor I had to ask him if he’d become a proponent for Audio Description.

[TR in conversation with Ted:]

You’re working with, I don’t know Steven Spielberg. You’re like Steven we got to put some Audio Description on this man… (Laughs)

Ted:

Laughing… Hey Steven! (Said in a serious tone)

Oh yes of course. Right now it’s normalized for me to kind of like say well what are the options for everybody if I’m viewing piece of media. Mona has made it specifically clear that the deadlines are the deadlines for everything. The captioning, the Audio Description. The video, It needs to be accessible to everyone.

TR:

Planes Trains & Canes was Mona’s way to not only highlight the benefits that public transportation affords her, but also show the ingenuity and abilities of those who are Blind.

Mona’s travels reveal lots of valuable lessons for those adjusting to blindness.

MM:

Even though I am 32 years old, I feel like I am more at peace with it then I have ever been. I don’t know if I want to share this with the world but yeh (laughing…)

[TR in conversation with MM:]

Well, let me just say something to you right now Again, it’s totally, totally fine if you don’t want to share.

MM:

Yeh!

[TR in conversation with MM:]

But that right there, again, think about it from the person who’s adjusting.

MM:

Yeh! No, I think it’s good I’ll explain why I say this.

[TR in conversation with MM:]

yeh!

MM:

I thought I was at peace. I used to take comments of you look sighted as compliments. I realize the detriment of that, only until like last year. Why should that be a compliment, you know? And I realized that I had built up all these techniques to almost compensate for blindness as opposed to work with it.

I had internalized this concept of blindness as weakness. I think it’s really important for Blind people to realize, we are inherently better problem solvers because we have to work around a lot of things. Blindness is not weakness. And to truly believe that I don’t know if I’m a hundred percent there.

TR:

I so respect and appreciate that honesty. It’s what I personally believe, adjusting to blindness is a continuous process. And if that’s ok for this Bio Engineer professor, well, I’m just saying, she’s doing something right.

[TR in conversation with MM:]

What have you taken away from this whole experience?

MM:

I think I pushed myself more than I would have for the sake of the videos. I learned that there’s a lot of good out there and there’s a lot of like negatives that we need to fix and that’s ok.

I don’t know how to explain this feeling. it’s almost an internal shift where I want to go to Mongolia, I can go to Mongolia. Where maybe before I’d be like well I really don’t know how I would go to Mongolia. I need to find somebody to go with me or whatever. And now it’s like this state of mind. If I want to go I can go!

[TR in conversation with MM:]

It sounds like, like you’re free.

MM:

Exactly! Exactly I obtained more freedom than I ever thought I could. And I think I have more freedom than the average person gets to mentally experience and what a privilege.

[TR in conversation with MM:]

And it’s attainable. You did it one specific way but that’s not the only way to attain that level of freedom and access.

MM:

Yeh. It’s like I learned it from my travels but I feel like it’s not about the travels, right. You can learn it in your own backyard. it’s about the mindset… you want it, go for it!

[TR in conversation with MM:]

Mona, this was better than I thought it was going to be. I thought it was going to be great, but this was even better. (Laughs…)

MM:

Laughs…

[TR in conversation with MM:]

One hundred percent!

Congratulations! I’m going to keep watching. I want to make sure other people watch. So you got a fan over here ok, I just want you to know that.
MM:

Thank you very much, I’m a fan of yours too!

TR:

Please welcome the latest members of the Reid My Mind Radio Family. Planes Trains & Canes, that’s Natalie Guzi, Angela Becolli , Benjamin Ted Jimenez and leading the way with her white cane in hand;

Audio: Put some respect on my name!

Dr. Mona Minkara!

[TR in conversation with MM:]

where can people check out Planes Trains & Canes and also where can they learn more about you Mona?

MM:

They can go to PlanesTrainsAndCanes.com or go to YouTube and type Planes Trains & Canes or you can go to MonaMinkara.com to learn more about me. If you want to learn about my research check out MinkaraCombineLab.com.

If you’re on Twitter follow @PlaneTrainCane (singular) and @Mona_Minkara

You can subscribe to Reid My Mind Radio wherever you get podcasts.
Transcripts, resources and more are over at ReidMyMind.com. And yes, that’s R to the E I D (Audio: “D, and that’s me in the place to be!” Slick Rick)

Like my last name

Audio: Reid My Mind Radio Outro

Peace!

Hide the transcript

TR:

What’s up Reid My Mind Radio Family?

Yo soy Tomaso, Thomas Reid, host and producer of this podcast – Reid My Mind Radio.

Welcome to those of you who are new here.

This podcast introduces you to compelling people impacted by all degrees of blindness and disability.

every now and then, like today’s episode, I share some of my own thoughts and experiences as a man adjusting to becoming Blind as an adult. And yes, I say adjusting, I don’t think I’ll ever really use the ed suffix on adjust. That’s not to mean there’s no progress. It’s just a continuous journey. Once you get to the understanding that it’s not one to be feared or even think negatively about, it gets better. But It’s like life, there’s always going to be change, and vision loss or any disability is now a part of that.

If that’s part of your reality, a family member or friend or maybe people you work with, well you’re definitely in the right place. If you yourself are going through some other sort of life change or you just like podcasts. There’s something here for you too, if you are opened to that.

Everyone is truly welcomed here with the exception of those with real hate in your heart. Energy works in mysterious ways and I don’t want that negativity being passed along to me or any of the family.

So let’s get this poppin!

Audio: Reid My Mind Radio theme

# Intro

Today I’m sharing some thoughts about this podcast. These are not stream of consciousness. No way I wouldn’t do that to you. My mind can be a scary place when I’m trying to figure things out.

Audio: Sound of chaos!

Chances are as I navigate these thoughts they will prove to be applicable to more than this podcast and hopefully useful to others. That’s exactly how I feel about every episode. I focus on those adjusting to blindness , but lots of others can relate and enjoy.

Audio: Typing sounds….

Since I began this podcast and maybe even prior, I have been very specific about saying I don’t see myself as a journalist. I’m an advocate, straight up! If you listen to the podcast, you know there’s a certain message about blindness and disability. My opinion or feelings in most cases are evident. The overall message is one of empowerment. I’m not impartial.

Audio: Possibly use old episodes here

As if journalism is really impartial.

There are times though when I need to make all sorts of journalistic decisions. It could be the way I edit or the specific questions I ask, even the overall feel of the show, the sound design. It’s intentional. My approach is different from your standard so called impartial reporter.

I’m connected to most people who are guests on the podcast. Usually, the connection isn’t personal. Rather it’s through blindness and disability Sometimes it could be race or we have something else in common.

I feel a responsibility to both my guests and listeners.

I want my guests to feel what I hear when they tell me their story. I want them to know I respect them and their experience.

I want listeners to find the multiple ways they relate to my guests. Yes, there’s the disability experience, but maybe they share a similar motivation, desire or goal.

That’s what I want, it doesn’t mean I can always make it happen.

every listener brings their own past, prejudices, preconceptions and experiences to the podcast.

That makes sense, it’s like anything else. Two people hear the same song , see the same film or read the same book and have drastically different interpretations.

Some people see a reflection of their own lives and goals while others never see themselves in a podcast where blindness and disability is so prevalent.

It’s probably not one or the other. I think there are some who have a bit of both. Either way, I can’t control that.

Which leads me to this statement…

“You should always remember, there are people worse off than you.”

Audio:

“No matter how you’re sad and blue, there’s always someone who has it worse than you”, Shaggy

YouTube Videos
* ” If you’re having a bad day, just consider the day ….”

* “Bare in mind, there’s always someone worse off than you”

Song sung by Little Richard at a MS Telathon.

“… As I look around, so many people who cannot walk, not talk nor see, I thank God for the health and strength that I have, for there’s someone worse off than I am.”
TR:

First things first…

I’m pretty sure I said this same thing at some point in my life. it’s a common statement and an accepted way of thinking.

But, what does it really mean?

How can you compare someone’s life and happiness without all the information??

Is this really pity?

As a content producer, I cringe when I hear it now especially in relation to my podcast.

There’s never been a guest on Reid My Mind Radio that’s in need of someone’s pity.

I then question the choices made for that episode

Did I present this person in a way that says they should be pitied?

I don’t think I focus on the illness side of things. I do include or mention mainly because;
Others with the same diagnosis can relate.
It can also serve as a way to normalize illness and disability. They are a part of life and not a mysterious thing that happened to one person.

AudioFx: Ambiance head in skull
Am I creating inspiration porn?

Most of you are probably familiar with that term. It’s the
idea of presenting people with disabilities as inspirational solely or in part on the basis of their disability.

This idea that this person’s story which often you don’t even get, well it should inspire you or just give you that warm fuzzy feeling reminding you that most of the world is so considerate.

Watch how the rest of the high school students cheered on as the coach let the intellectually disabled kid in the game for the last 20 seconds.

News Report Audio:
Crowd cheering.Coach: He comes to ppractice everyday, he shoots with them, he cheers them on…”

TR:

Or…

News Reports:
Reporter 1: A very special student indeed…
Reporter 2: All thanks to the compassion of one of his classmates….
Reporter 3: But the emotion of this night involved a student who cannot take the field, but is universally admired for his determination…
Reporter 4: A special needs student with Williams Syndrome. He’s a fixture on the sidelineduring football games always rooting on the team. But hi fives are one thing senior prom is something different.
Student: She could have picked anybody to go to prom with.. her.

TR:

I just don’t want to put that sort of thing out in the world.

Does it sound like I’m making a big deal out of this? Maybe because I’ve seen inspiration porn live and in full effect. In fact, I unknowingly was recruited to be a part of the performance.

Audio: Dream Harp

Many years ago when I was still very new to blindness, I was asked by a local organization serving those with vision loss, to give a access technology demo during an event.

I took to the technology pretty quickly and they thought I could be helpful sharing that information.

There was no money involved of course, but they’d provide my transportation and I think there was going to be a lunch. Whatever, I was down to help the cause for sure.

I was setup y’all!

Arriving at the center, I was shown to the main room where the event was taking place.

There were three or four individuals with vision loss seated up in the front of the room. The rest of the group was seated around a large conference table.

I was shown to a table in the front of the room off to the side where I setup my laptop.

Shortly after, the host of the event, the director of the center, welcomed the guests and kicked off the agenda.

Each of the men and women seated in the front of the room were asked to share the story of their vision loss.

Here’s how I recall that event;
Audio: Trap Beat!

each individual told their story while the event host accentuated the misery.

Storyteller:
” Before I went blind, I used to take long walks in the park
Now, I can’t see anything, my whole world is dark!”

Host: “Pitch black, the world is dark, too dangerous for you in the park.

TR:

Laughs! I said, that’s how I recall it today, but that’s not exactly what happened. But I do recall the questions and comments from the host were obviously selected to highlight the negative.
She was playing to the fear of the guests seated around the conference table.
these were potential donors.
All who probably already had beliefs about blindness;
“it’s probably the worst thing that could happen to you and if we don’t help these poor people they won’t be able to do anything. They can’t do for themselves.”

I was setup to be a part of a dog and pony show to help fundraise for the organization.

the fact that it was a fundraiser isn’t the problem for me. I would have still agreed to attend.
However, I would not have participated if I was aware of the approach being used to raise that money.

My so called presentation was probably less than 5 minutes. The host asked some specific questions and then made it seem like it was my technology background that enabled me to grasp the tools and less about the technology as a tool for independence.

Then they pulled out the glasses.

Audio: Glasses clinking and sliding down a bar!

No, not drinks. I don’t even think that would have helped. . No, it was the blindness simulation glasses. These are created to help sighted people understand what it supposedly looks like when you have certain diseases like, macular degeneration, RP, glaucoma and others.

At first thought, you may think ok, that’s probably helpful. It helps people understand and therefore empathize? Sympathize?

Well, in this particular case, while the dog and ponies sat up in front and this one off to the side a bit, the sighted donors were led into their temporary world of vision loss.

Reluctantly at first, one after the other each slowly began trying on the glasses.

“Oh my”…. “wow”
“where did you go Jeanie?”

And then the real fun began as they exchanged glasses with one another. Laughing as they realized how little they could actually see. Unable to find things they placed on the conference table. The host joking as she moved their cups of coffee.

Meanwhile, the dogs and ponies sat up front. While the jackasses continued with their disability experiment.

Empathy, I didn’t see that. But a check was written.

I don’t remember how the event finally ended, but I do know that was it for me. I checked out. There may have been some additional conversation but I doubt I had much to say to anyone after bearing witness to that display of ableism. I vowed to never be a part of anything even remotely like that.

I could easily imagine each of the donors around the table going home fulfilled and thinking “I should really count my blessings, because there’s always someone worse off in the world.”

As far as I could tell, I was alone in my review of the event. I believe some of the others continued to participate. I pretty much severed ties and ended up having a sort of reputation, so I was never asked again. perfect!

All of this leads to my final question.

How are we telling our own stories?

I highly doubt any of the people sharing their story were given instructions on how to tell it. Chances are, the director simply knew these individuals would supply what she wanted for the audience.

Some may say the ends justify the means. The center received the money and therefore can do good things for the clientele. I don’t agree. I believe several of those in the room were employers in positions to someday hire a blind person. I doubt they would. But that’s a subject for another day.

What thought do you put into telling your own story?

In most instances, we’re doing the telling of our own story. We don’t have a videographer, podcaster, journalist.

We’re probably not standing in front of an audience equipped with a PowerPoint presentation. We’re simply talking to people. Most often one on one.

Crazy thing, I tell other people’s stories but not my own. I can do it in a presentation, no doubt, but one on one not so much. I feel strange.

Audio: Cameo Strange! moves into “Children’s Story” Instrumental Slick Rick

I should tell my story as if I’m giving a presentation. it’s mine, it’s a good one. It’s worth telling. It can be helpful.

And it’s the only one I have.

And in the event someone hears it and their thought is
“Wow, I’m so grateful because I’m not like Thomas!”

My response, Bruh, you should be so lucky!

I’m not flexing’ or being conceited or anything like that. But this is my life why shouldn’t I be proud of what I do, when I do it and how I do it.

the same decisions I make for my guests and you all the listener, shouldn’t I put that much time and thought into my own story?

If you say yes, then maybe you too should do the same.

I told you this wouldn’t just be related to podcasting. In fact, it’s not just related to disability.

Or is it?

“Here we go!” Slick Rick, Childrens Story

You can find Reid My Mind Radio wherever you get podcasts. And if for some reason that isn’t the case, like teddy said, come on over to my place… ReidMyMind.com. That’s R to the E I D

Slick Rick “D, and that’s me in the place to be”

Like my last name.

Audio: Reid My Mind Radio outro

Peace

Hide the transcript

TR:
What’s good everybody! Welcome to another episode of Reid My Mind Radio!

I thought we could try going a little more in depth with one story.

generally, the stories on Reid My Mind Radio tend to have a positive spin. More than often, these stories and interviews revolve around the broad topic of adjusting to blindness.

Sometimes we need to hear about the problems, the reality.

And then discover the valuable lessons within.

That’s today, but first… you know how we do it

[Audio: Reid My Mind Theme…]

LO
I’m Liz Oleksa. and I live in Macungie with my son Logan who just turned 13 and my guide dog Bryce Krispy.

TR:
Macungie, Pennsylvania.

LO:
Yes Sir!

TR:
How long have you had Bryce Krispy?

LO:
May 21, of this year will be three years that Bryce and I have been together.

TR:
Is that his full name Bryce Krispy or did you put the Krispy?

LO:
Well at the school they called him Bryce Krispy, but on all his paper work it just says Bryce. So I use both. He likes when I call him Bryce Krispy his tail wags a lot faster. He really recognizes that as his name cause he knows he’s super sweet.

[Audio: Sound of rain and city sidewalk]

I was at a doctor’s appointment and I had just finished up . I had scheduled my pickup for 11:30 with my local transportation. It was raining so I waited outside but yet under the overhang. And I’m a people person so you know I hear somebody walking up I’ll say hi. This lady came up and I didn’t know it was a lady at first and I said “Hi how are you today?” She said Fine and there was a little girl; I am assuming it was a little girl with her. Around 5 six at most. She sounded kind of short so I am assuming she was younger. The little girl was really bubbly and they’re both talking and you know the cutie puppy talk; “Oh look at the god, look at the dog.” The little girl said, “We can’t touch the doggie, right? He’s a really pretty doggie, we can’t touch her?” I said, no you can’t touch him honey I’m sorry he’s working. The mom even said no you can’t touch the puppy, but he is really pretty. The girl said again, “We can’t touch the puppy.” And she’s starting to get a little I guess anxious? I said no honey I’m sorry you can’t touch him he’s working. As a handler if you distract him I could get hurt. Well now she starts yelling, “We can’t touch the puppy!” And the lady’s like “No honey we can’t touch the puppy.” And the girl yelled , I could hear her she was starting to jump around… “We can’t touch the puppy!” And I felt Bryce moving a little funny so I reached down and here the woman was petting the dog. Now she herself told her daughter don’t touch the dog, the daughter told her don’t touch the dog, I told her don’t touch the dog. So I said to the lady kind of calm at first but a little stern I said, ” Mam, please don’t touch the dog he’s working. Both your daughter and I and you just told you not to touch the dog. She goes, oh well its ok, I mean I just can’t help it look at his eyes. Now Bryce , I have been told has the most beautiful honey colored eyes. He’s a yellow lab and he has very very unique eyes, but I don’t care how cute his eyes are it’s still not ok. You know but she’s like, Oh itis ok I just can’t help myself. And I stopped and said Mam stop touching my dog. Now the little girl’s screaming she’s crying don’t touch the dog, don’t touch the dog. I’m getting frustrated so I reach down, just like I was taught at school, if somebody is touching your dog and you’ve kindly asked them you have permission to remove their hand from your dog because that do is an extension of you.

I reach down and I took her hand and I wasn’t rough but I took her hand and pushed it away.
She gasped when I took her hand off my dog She backed up and slapped me across the face and said you have some nerve to invade my personal space like that. I just stood there with my mouth kind of hanging open like “Are you serious right now?” And she said let’s go and she and her little girl went off either into the building or they left. I was too shocked at the time as to … oh my goodness you just slapped me across the face., but yet she was the one who invaded my personal space and my boundaries.

TR:
You heard correctly, slapped in the face!

With that in mind I wanted to examine this situation from a professional perspective.

AW:
Hi my name is Dr. Andre Watson. I’m a Clinical Psychologist in the Philadelphia area.

TR:
I had the opportunity to speak with Dr. Watson last year. We talked about some of his experiences growing up blind and the challenges he faced in attaining his doctorate in Psychology. If you haven’t heard that episode, I suggest you go back and give it a listen.

I asked Dr. Watson to unpack some of what took place in the incident you just heard from Liz as well as what he referred to as…
AW:
… what we have to deal with as blind people trying to make it in America.

[TR in conversation with AW]

Make it in the world cause hopefully people outside of America listen to this too. (Laughs!)

AW:

Absolutely!

Personally and professionally I hear about these kind of stories happening all the time with blind people whether it be with a guide dog or with a cane or with freedom. With he right to make a decision for you own self. And I think this was a clear case of disrespect and disregard for Liz as a person. A person with a brain, a person with choice. And so it really upset me to hear this story not because it’s not common, but because it is so common and so many people that are blind who are trying to live an independently life not only have to deal with some natural barriers to independence but also some of the social barriers to independence. SO Liz established like any dog owner, like any parent, you have established a boundary which you need to do, and so somebody else disregarded that . On one hand I would take it personally and on the other hand I wouldn’t. Because a lot of time people that do these kinds of things disregard a lot of people’s boundaries. This could have been a women who has been disrespected herself in her own life and now is doing that to other people. Bullying is a real issue and people that bully look for people that they see as being weaker and vulnerable. Ironically, people that do bully have been bullied. This is all about perception. Blind people being seen as vulnerable, being seen as less capable, less aware.

TR:
Being seen as vulnerable based on someone’s perception,
well no one can really be immune to these types of experiences. even those who can thoroughly recognize them for what they are.

I actually had a similar experience with my guide dog. I sat down on the bus. The dog is under the seat and the woman sitting to my right
tells me oh, the dog’s fine. And I’m thinking she’s saying the dog’s fine because the dog’s not intruding on her space. As I was checking my dog feeling her, make sure she was out of the way, but really what she was saying was she’s fine so that I can pet her. I reach up and I feel this woman’s hand on my dog and I say, oh excuse me please don’t pet my dog.

As much as I would like to think that people are fair and that they want not to take advantage of blindness or each other’s disability, that’s not the case.

People abuse children every day. People take advantage of people that they think they can get over on, all the time. And it might not be a willful planned activity, but it still happens

TR:
In case you’re unfamiliar with the issue when it specifically involves guide dogs and petting them…
That dog has been trained to work and concentrate on the task at hand while in that harness. The only instructions it should follow are from the handler. What may seem like harmless petting can lead to the dog becoming distracted and potentially not relaying important information or responding properly to the handler.

But it goes beyond guide dogs, beyond these specific incidents; as Dr. Watson explained, it’s about how we and others with disabilities are perceived.
Once again!

AW:
…what we have to deal with as blind people trying to make it in America.
How should we deal with these kinds of issues when they happen?
First what you don’t do is that you don’t stop going out. You don’t stop asserting yourself. That’s the hard part right there is to be resilient in the face of some of these obstacles. Secondly is to bring some awareness to these kinds of things to everyone that this is unacceptable. First of all petting the dog from the beginning was unacceptable.

TR:
In no way is this podcast about judging how Liz responded. She has the right to choose what is appropriate for her.

It just so happens, the steps Liz took, were right in line with what would be recommended for anyone in such a situation.

Let’s return to Liz still waiting for her local transportation company immediately after the incident.
And if you have ever waited for a para transit, you know how long that can take.

[And yes, shots fired! Para transit, step your game up!]

LO:
The bus is forty minutes late and I just stood there.

I wasn’t angry with the woman I was more disturbed by her lack of respect for my personal space and for the example she was selling her child. I can’t imagine if this is what I just went through asking her not to do something what the little girl must have to go through. My heart just went out to both of them for mainly the mother’s ignorance.

[TR in conversation with Liz]
Were you in shock?

LO:
I’m not going to lie, I actually had like a smirk on my face. Like Are you… serious, what really just happened here?

I was being friendly and said hello. My dog is doing his job. He’s sitting next to me not bothering anyone. Don’t they teach us in elementary school you hear the word stop or know you stop?

[TR in conversation with Liz]
has that changed you in any way?

LO:
I don’t want people to think that, don’t talk to me. Absolutely you know what, I want people to talk to me. Don’t talk to my dog though. You know talk to me, I’m the person. You have a question about my dog he’s not going to answer you so you don’t need to ask him.

“Oh are you taking good care of your mommy?”

I can answer your questions for you.

[TR in conversation with Liz:]
is that an actual thing that you hear?

LO:
oh my goodness yes!

When I leave places people are like “now you take good care of your mommy.”

“You show mommy how to get home!”

No, no I tell him how to get home. He just follows my commands.

There’s a time and a place for me to fight that battle too. If
I have the extra time I may start up a conversation with a person and be like Hey just so you know talk to me. It’s not about necessarily proving a point. Some people just don’t know!

The whole bus ride home I just was trying to wrap my mind around this. It took about an hour.

I made a post on Facebook about
it to kind of spread awareness. And I laughed at times. And after I posted it I cried. I wasn’t sad for myself I was really just sad for this woman and then I was like if I could see I probably would have slapped her back. But, then again that’s an afterthought and I don’t want to resort to. Ducking to her level?

I got quite a bit of negative feedback.

I had people telling me that my response to the situation was wrong and I should have contacted the police and file a police report

[TR in conversation with Liz]
Were these other guide dog users?

LO:
. Some of them were. Some of them were cane users. Some of them were sighted. I mean just people from all different aspects of my life

AW:
that’s called blaming the victim

TR:
Once again, Dr. Watson.

AW:
We do that a lot because something really terrible happens we can’t accept that it happened. It’s always easy to do Monday morning
quarterbacking and look back and say oh I would have been there so I would have done that. Who would expect to be slapped in the face by anybody? Nobody plans on that. You don’t know when that’s going to happen
[TR in conversation with Dr. Watson]
one of the reasons I wanted to call you Andre was because when we last spoke you mentioned something and I think you referred to it as the identity check. And it was these types of well I guess micro aggressions right that sometimes you have
AW:
yes

[TR in conversation with Dr. Watson]
You get them and then you have to kind of go back and talk to yourself in the mirror Bill yourself back up. What would you say that people who experience these types of things in terms of kind of checking their identity. What advice would you give?

AW:
Definitely you need to be. Talking to somebody who knows you. Who can validate who you are.

You can talk about how this one event doesn’t define you. Whether it’s interpreting it as being vulnerable or weak or being second class; because these little things like this can happen. Like you know that slow drip of micro aggressions can happen and slowly eat away at someone’s
confidence. It’s helpful to be able to be around people that understand you. It’s great to be in a community of other blind people that you can talk to and they can share maybe share some similar experiences. It’s also good to be and situations where you feel like you’re on equal footing with people.

This is not some kind of militant radical idea but it’s good to be with family. By that I mean it’s good to be around people who have shared experiences as you. you don’t have to worry about being slapped. You know have to worry about people petting your dog when they shouldn’t do that. In many ways you have to put on an armor
when you go out so that you can remember who you are but that’s very emotionally taxing. It wears on your mind, from your thoughts to how you think about yourself. How you think about other people. You become angry, bitter, hostile. You could doubt yourself emotionally. You could be down on yourself. In some cases people actually feel it in their bodies. So you’ve got headaches and backaches and if you’re like me you like to have an extra piece of cake.

[TR in conversation with Dr. Watson:]
Laughs!

AW:
It’s good to be aware of these things and how they can affect you. And you make sure that you’re not consumed by it.

I know I’ve heard lots of stories from sighted people. They always say
oh oh I met a blind guy he was just so mean to me or blind woman she was so mean to me. Well these are the things that happen; things that happen to Liz, they happen to me and to you. And then you do get callous. And so when somebody says hi can I pet your dog; No get away from me!

That’s because it’s worn on you.

I think it’s good to find places where you don’t have to worry about that. Where you can be replenished. Where you can get affirmed. You realize that blindness is a part of you. Just like it’s part of somebody being a man or a woman or black or white or Asian. It’s a part of who we are. We don’t have to see it as something negative

Really we’re living in a sighted world so it’s not our issue it’s the sighted world’s issue. And they are the ones that need help with getting it together.

[TR in conversation with Dr. Watson]

Can you talk a little bit more about that because a lot of people might feel like it’s the opposite because it’s like well no it’s your problem you’re the one who is blind. Why do I need to change, you’re gonna just have to deal with that.

AW:

Well that is a reality of it. I mean unfortunately we have to choose our battles so we do have to
be ready to adjust. But it’s not our fault. And we’re in a world that’s very narcissistic. People only see things and I specifically am saying the word see, people
only see things from their perspective. Sighted people only see things from their perspective and so this is not just an exercise in. Blindness versus sighted, but it’s just an exercise of us versus them or me and the other person. People really need to learn how to see things from other people’s perspective whether they be blind or deaf or wheel chair user or from another culture or from another country. I think we all have to share that responsibility but I think it’s
even more important for the dominant culture. To take some responsibility. It’s a pretty liberal perspective but I think the people in power, the people
within the dominant culture need to be able to consider how they’re going to integrate those who are in a subordinate role. Into our society. There are many many people who are very good at doing that. This is not an us against them, but there are some people that need to be informed.

so things are changing for our benefit but still there is so much more that needs to be done.

[TR in conversation with Dr. Watson]
Indeed! Cool! Very good Sir! And hopefully you just did a little more of that.

AW:
I’m glad you brought up this example because I really think it underscores a real issue within our society when it comes to independence and the kinds of obstacles that we
face as blind people. To the point where now it becomes and it could become an actual physical altercation and that’s not just talk about a slap in the face
I see some similar experiences as being out there all the time like when someone grabs me by the arm and decides that oh you’re going to come with me or they take my dogs harness and try to pull the dog where they think I should go. Or when I’m in a coffee shop and I finish putting some Splenda in my tea and somebody comes along and takes the packets without telling me and they put them in the trash.

I think it just begs for us to continue to make our voices heard. To let
people know that we want to be the captains of our own ship.

TR:
As for Liz, who by the way only lost her sight about 4 and a half years ago;
well she’s guiding her ship towards a Bachelor’s degree in Applied Psychology with a minor in Neuro Psychology.

She’s also currently serving as the President of her local Lehigh Valley chapter of the advocacy organization, the Pennsylvania Council of the Blind

She continues to spread awareness through her speaking engagements at local schools and nonprofits like the Boy & girl Scouts.

Big thanks to Liz for sharing her story.
And Dr. Watson for providing some expertise.

telling these types of stories can be really impactful especially to those who aren’t aware. But at the same time I know they can be of help to others adjusting. And Not just to blindness or disability.

Those unfamiliar with disability , tend to have a hard time seeing past their own stereotypes and immediately believe the material isn’t for them.

There could be some real gems, or useful information, included in a story that is applicable to anyone going through an adjustment, but that story is framed around the subject of blindness and well it’s no longer considered applicable.

Oh that’s not for me, that’s for those blind people. And feel free to change blind people to something else, black people, Muslims, women…

But like Dr. Watson said, we all need to do a better job at seeing the perspective of others. We have to stop thinking oh that’s a blind thing, that’s a black thing.

On that note, I’d like to invite you the listener… yes, I’m talking to you specifically…
I would love for you to check out another podcast I have the chance to work on. It’s for a site called TheReImage. The idea is that our stories as people with vision loss have the power to recreate the image and the perception that others have of what it means to live with vision loss.

The approach is to tell our stories from that perspective that unites us all… humanity. Despite what many may think, we have shared experiences.. People with vision loss have families, raise children, hold down jobs, have hobbies… you get the point.

The stories are told without focusing on the blindness but rather on the person. We call that person first storytelling.

There are two episodes up now and one actually features Dr. Watson. I think many of you would like the current episode as well….

Give it a listen and give us some feedback…
Go to TheReImage.net and look for the podcast link.

If you have any feedback on this podcast, please hit me at ReidMyMindradio@gmail.com.

I’m working on some future episodes so you should really go ahead and subscribe to the show. Then you don’t have to worry about remembering. I know that really keeps you up at night!

Anyway, time for me to get back to steering my ship!

Just call me El Capitan of Reid My Mind Radio!
All aboard!
[Audio: Ship Horn]
Peace!
———-

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