Reid My Mind

Sample: “This is a journey into sound.” eric B and Rakim

TR:
— Sound of the Reid My Mind Radio studio door opening. (A bit of squeak going on with that door!)

Casually singing to himself… It’s time! Time to make a change, we are the people who can do it!

Where are my headphones…
(takes a deep breath)
What’s up family, welcome back to another episode of Reid My Mind Radio.
First time here? Let me tell you about a few things you need to know.

I’m Thomas Reid, host and producer of this here podcast.
Nice to meet you!

We’re in the midst of the Flipping the Script on Audio Description season. This is where we go beyond the mainstream audio description conversation to talk about how this art impacts the community. To some extent, today’s episode is a continuation from the last featuring Kemal Gorey.
In that episode, we saw how audio description was a tool for Kemal to compose the score for a silent film.
That got me thinking, hmm, do we as Blind consumers of visual content, listen to sound and music in a film in a way that helps us interpret that content?

Today’s episode may not feel like what you’ve come to expect from Flipping the Script, but I invite you to listen, carefully.

— Reid My Mind Theme Music

Estevan:
Hello. My name is Estevan Carlos Benson, and I live in Los Angeles, originally from Texas. I am an artist, educator, musician and composer. Right now I teach at USC Art Center, College of Design and Pasadena City College in the Southern California area. My pronouns are he, him and I am black and Mexican. Brown skin tone, beard, shaved headand about medium build wearing a brown shirt and glasses that I describe as very reminiscent of 1980s computer programmer.

TR:
Shout out to all my Black and brown brothers with bald heads and beards.
You know, every now and then I invite someone on with no personal relationship to disability.

Estevan:
The extent of my relationship is teaching subjects that deal with accessibility, something under the umbrella of user experience. It’s meant to be broad. Generally dealing with screen based experiences that could be web, but any sort of application. So it’s a little bit agnostic with the technology.

I’ve taught some classes where we’ll talk about music applications we may discuss;
how are people understanding the screen?
How do we handle things such as color blindness in order to communicate effectively. How do we deal with different aspects of vision, of legibility for the screen? And then, of course,
when it comes to the web, then we discuss the accessibility guidelines.

TR:
Today’s conversation is not about WCAG, but it is sort of related to the user experience.
AD users.

In addition to teaching, Estevan is a musician and composer.

Estevan:
Probably like most other musicians, I started off as a young person interested and intrigued by music.
I really enjoy those early years of being extremely curious.
I’m hearing music. I’m fascinated by what I hear. I took some fundamental kind of piano lessons as a preteen that held my attention to some extent.
Then eventually, I had a uncle who gave me access to a computer and early MIDI sequencer or notation software.
Just writing notation to play back generic piano sounds. As a teenager, got a synthesizer, and kind of went from there. So I’ve been making music since I was probably 16 or 17.

TR:
Estevan studied music as an undergrad and became quite passionate about the science of digital music. He continued making his own music and was encouraged to consider scoring for films.

Estevan:
So in 2020 I decided to get more involved that community. And so I’ve worked on small independent short films, documentaries, and then also got more involved with interactive music and composing for art installations.

TR:
Prior to 2020, music for film was part of Estevan’s music education.

Estevan:
I loved understanding the theoretical aspects of it and just the fundamentals. I remember reading a book from Walter Murch, who is possibly more known as an editor. He’s one of the editors of the early Star Wars films, but he’s also a sound designer. One of his books is called Conversations with Walter Murch. It’s fantastic. It was very inspiring. It was great to read someone discussing sound design in a very serious way and reflecting on how he approached it and here’s how we can all think about sound in our film.
That generally informed my approach later on.

TR:
The book, titledThe Conversations: Walter Murch and the Art of Editing Film
is available on Bookshare.org.

TR in Conversation with Estevan
Tr in Conversation with Estevan:
What exactly is sound design? How would you define that for folks?

Estevan:
You’re manipulating sound, carving and crafting sound to express or to represent. Sometimes the sound needs to be open to interpretation, and maybe a lot of interpretation. So it’s an expression, it can be mood. And then sometimes the sound is intended to represent something, it may lean towards more literal representation, similar to how there can be a tradition of visual communication between something that is abstract, open to a lot of interpretation, and then something that’s representational, that is intended to look like a thing.

TR:
So the same applies to sound.

An example of a more representational sound would be foot steps when someone is walking down a street.
While a melancholy musical score may express their mood.

Estevan:
I think when Walter Murch is talking in that book, he’s trying to help the reader understand that there is much more room for expression here than his peers or people in the past have taken seriously. Not to say that every film of the past only uses sound representationally to literally represent something, but when you have a medium that is less understood, it may be more difficult to be expressive in it.

TR:
We know society focuses much more on visuals in comparison to sound. It’s the difference between audio description and captions. We have more words to describe visuals than we do for sound. Turn on captions for your average television show or film and I can almost garuntee the sounds of the film including music will be minimally described if at all.

Like “music plays”. (Filtered voice)What’s that?

Estevan:
So I think that is one of the changes and shifts that we’ve had, I suspect, in film over these many decades of using sound in ways that can be expressive and not just hyper literal representation.

TR in Conversation with Estevan

Do sound designers, like other artists, specialize , like, a literal sound designer versus someone who’s more interpretive expressionist. Or do you have to have the ability to do both?

Estevan:
Under the umbrella of sound design, you may include someone known as the foley artist, or Foley sounds. So if you’re including that that person is leaning towards, not always, but leaning towards more representation of what is on the screen. So that does exist. But does someone have to really focus on one area or the other? Not necessarily, if you are a Foley artist or Foley person, then yes, you will be likely leaning towards representing information. But for most people who have the title of sound designer they really need to be able to move in any direction to kind of just fulfill the goals of the project.
TR:
you probably heard of Foley artists. They’re the folks who make all the sounds for the films. Literally, making the sounds.

Take your average fight scene in a movie. It’s probably going to consist of punches,
— Sample Sound of a punch.

kicks
— Sound of kicking.

and my favorite breaking tables, chairs and glass.
— Sounds of a wooden table and glass breaking.
It kind of reminds me of my latest bar fight.
It wasn’t my fault, I was just passing time and stepped into a bar for a drink. I was waiting for the bartender…

— Dream harp

Voice calls out: “Jimmy”

TR:
I tried taking a seat at the bar when all of a sudden.

— Sound of breaking glass.

TR in Bar: “Oh my bad. Please, let me buy you another drink.”

Guy in Bar:
“Look a here, we got a blind guy come knock down my beer and now says he gonna buy me another one.”

TR in Bar: “Hey man, I’m just trying to be polite. I’m not looking for any trouble.”
Guy in Bar: Ya heard that Billy Bob, blind boy says he ain’t LOOKING for trouble. Show him what we do around these parts”

— Sound of something moving through the air.

TR in Bar: Sounds like nun chucks. Seriously, I’m Blind, you’re not impressing me.
Hey man, please don’t put your hands on me. You don’t want to make me angry.
Guy in Bar: Ya heard that Billy Bob, we don’t want to make Ray Charles here angry.”

TR in Bar: Ok, this is what we’re doing today?

— Punches,kicks and glass breaking begin.
Pow! Zap! Splatt!

TR in Bar: Hey, if anyone sees the bartender, please order me a vodka cranberry while I handle these fools.

Splatt! Zap! Pow!
— Reverse dream harp.
TR:
Ok, , I don’t endorse violence in any form.
Well, some of my fondest memories involve violence.

— Audio from a fight scene in the original Batman television series with lots of Pow! Zaps! Splatt!

TR:
Today there are lots of sound libraries with pre recorded sounds for all sorts of situations,
films with larger budgets continue to customize their sound design.

— “Ah, you caught us Batman, but your crime fighting days are over.” From Batman

TR in Conversation with Estevan:
I want to know about some of the basics that we should be listening for when we’re consuming visual content.

Like that creaking door. Something’s about to happen. Get out of there.

(The two laugh)

TR:
I know, who am I to talk about a creeking door. That was my actual door in the intro.
But the joke was right there.

Estevan:
So we’re asking, what is the sound designer doing that they hope the audience may listen for. And I think what’s interesting about that question is normally, the sound designer recognizes and acknowledges some of the detail they’re putting in there will not be heard at a conscious level.

Our brains or mind has to filter out a lot of information that we’re dealing with as we’re navigating spaces and experiences. So when we’re listening to anything, we’re not really able, nor necessarily should we be hearing every single thing all at once. So the sound designer has to work with that in mind they’re going to craft something, and the audience may sort of hear it consciously, but sort of won’t hear it.
So the audience can tell ourselves to listen to everything. I think one way to do that is to see if your mind can focus on the quiet sounds during moments that are loud.

TR:
We’re talking about active listening.

Estevan:
For example, you may have someone like shouting and yelling, but there may be quiet sounds in the background or in between that might tell you some of the story. That might be the subtlety that the director and sound designer are trying to express. I find in some scenes where there’s a lot of activity multiple people talking over each other and things like that, there can be subtle sounds in between here and there that are helping to express the scene, but easy to overlook because you’re trying to listen to the dialog. And then I think other sounds we sometimes may easily overlook that one can’t pay attention to, are the environmental sounds, the tones of a space, room tones and so forth, that can help give you context. And are not just there to tell you a place, but may also be there to represent a mood sometimes.

TR:
My home office used to be right off the kitchen on the main floor. I was very aware of any cars or trucks that drove into my driveway which was on the opposite side of the house.
This is active listening in my daily life.

Something I think I unknowingly trained myself to do because I want to knowif someone is entering my space. Eh yo, back up son!

Estevan:
You’re describing how your mind and our minds in general, can be attuned to certain things. So the issue isn’t so much that the car pulling into the driveway may be exceptionally loud. It may not be, but your mind is able to observe it, and then it is set up in so that upon. Observation, it becomes an important detail to you, and so you notice it.
For other folks, their mind is not a tune, and so they won’t notice it at all, And that is the interesting challenge of listening to a film, especially for the first time, there’s so much that you can miss, the mind becoming attuned to the details of first experience. I can’t imagine that being particularly easy at all.

TR:
Definitely not easy, it will take some real practice. Personally, I’ll start with a film that I’m already familiar with. Of course, not all films pay as much atttention to sound, but this exercise could probably be done with a lot of films.

The worst possible outcome, I revisit some familiar content again.
But the potential benefit could be additional access and perspective as well as another way to explore the world.

Estevan:
I don’t imagine the sound designer is having to put in a lot of nuance or detail into the sound design. But then some films they absolutely may be doing that. And so there actually may be a lot there to find and to listen for.

TR in Conversation with Estevan:
so what are some common examples of things that sound designers put in that can help interpret a story? There’s the obvious , that creepy music that comes on when something’s about to happen. What are some things that we could recognize?

Estevan:
Well, the first thing that came to mind right now, which is really, really silly, but you almost have to get it out of the way, is the trope, kind of the inside joke from sound designers, which is the Wilhelm scream that is put into probably hundreds of films at this point. I don’t know if you’ve heard of the Wilhelm scream?

TR:
You may not recognize the name, but I’m sure many of you heard it.

Estevan:
I believe there’s some 1950s film Western, and in this scene, some cowboy is shot off of his horse. He falls off and he screams.

— Wihlelm Scream

That scream has been resampled probably hundreds of times and used in so many films.

TR:
It’s not just westerns.

— Transition
— Sound of door slowly opening
— Ominous scary ambience
— Slow footsteps

TR:
Over the years the scream could be heard in all sorts of genres.

AD: A seven foot green creature with scalely skin with huge red eyes and a mouth filled with sharp fangs enters the Reid My Mind Radio studio.
The creature approaches Thomas bearing it’s fangs and raises it’s hands with nails as sharp and long as machetes.

— Monster grunt

TR:
… Sci fi, comedy…
(Fearfully)
Who is there?What do you want?
Oh my , no, no, no!

— Monster roar
— Slashing sound
— Wilhelm Scream.
— Sound of ripping, crunching and tearing apart.

— Transition

Estevan:
For traditional horror structures, there’s emphasis of silence or quiet tones before climax.
It’s something we noticed where the person is walking down the dark hallway, and previously, where we heard loud environmental sounds, room tones. All of a sudden we no longer hear that. All of a sudden, we’re hearing maybe an exaggerated silence or a soft tone, and that’s how we anticipate that it’s trying to lead to something.

TR:
Good news everybody, I’m okay!

The sound design plays a part in how we react. It’s what causes you to talk back to the screen.

Girl you better run, he’s right behind you. Run, run! Augh dang!

Estevan:
And then there are less obvious scenes where you could re watch something and be like, oh, wait a minute, maybe those sounds we heard just a moment ago were relating to this. I imagine that could happen in some films.

TR:
I remember watching a movie where a person was hit by a train.
It wasn’t until that moment where I recalled hearing the train off in the distance at the beginning of the scene.
The subtle sound of the train was a foreshadowing of what was soon to come.

Estevan:
yeah, that’s a good example, and it’s reminding me of a film I saw. They had some sound design that I would describe as very organic, meaning it didn’t clearly sound like some sort of synthesized sound. It also wasn’t really meant to represent a synthesized sound. It sounded like objects moving in a space. Think of how wind chimes have kind of this smooth but kind of moving sound to it, like one chime followed by another.
I would say initially, you may or may not notice it to some extent as a part of the environment, but as the film continued, you would notice some emphasis on it during some moments, and you’d realize, oh, it’s that sound again, but in the scene, they were not visually showing what it is. It was meant to represent something, but I don’t necessarily know what the director’s intent was.

I think it was a good example of the director and sound designer communicating something which, in my opinion, I think that it was mostly communicating feeling. I found myself super intrigued by, like, Oh, wow. What? What is that object, you know, yeah, you know, really, really interesting. Yeah,

TR in Conversation with Estevan:
Often in a film, there are these scenes they’re putting stuff in there and, they might represent something, or maybe they don’t, but they’re there for you to sort of take, right? And I don’t necessarily think about that with audio all the time. I feel like there’s another level of enjoyment, there’s another level of even just interest right in a film that you can gather audibly.

TR:
Imagine, you’re watching a film and the story isn’t really doing it for you, but the sound, now that sort of has it’s own thing going on.

Estevan:
Yeah, without a doubt.

That’s pretty much how the recent Dune movies are for me. I’m fine with the story. I have a feeling the book is highly engaging. I find the direction of the films to be effective. They’re lovely, but I’m honestly just so entranced by the score and sound design that I just really enjoy listening to it. And there are films where I will just buy it, because I really enjoy listening.

TR:
To be clear, Estevan is referring to both the music of the film or the sound track and the sound design.

Estevan:
You can buy the score for these films. You can’t buy the sound design, and I absolutely hate that. There are some films where the marriage between the two to me is so special, so beautiful, but you cannot gain access to the sound design. If I could listen to some films with zero dialog. There’s some films I only want to hear the sounds and the score. So sometimes I will struggle to ignore the dialog, but I’m really trying to hear the sound design and the score.

TR in Conversation with Estevan:
I wonder if there are any examples that we can maybe walk through to illustrate some of the sound design that goes on.

Estevan:
Sure, yeah. So here we have Star Wars Episode Four from 1977 Walter Murch worked on this. He’s the one who was interviewed in conversations with Walter Murch.

This is when Vader comes in. A comment in YouTube says that Mark Hamill asked George whether or not this scene needed more exposition, this is supposedly hamills quote. Aren’t you going to cut to two characters saying, Who is that? That’s the Dark Lord of the Sith, because Hamill wasn’t sure that the audience would understand that this was a bad guy. And so this is a really interesting scene, because it’s the sound and the music that helps us understand that.

— Beep! “Take 1″ Film clabboard!
— clip here…

TR:
George in this case is of course George Lucas, director of Star Wars.

George replied and I quote” Bruh, mind you’re business and watch this.”
Ok, maybe not a quote. But I bet he was thinking it.

Estevan:
George felt that yeah, just the sound in the visual would tell the audience enough of how to interpret it. What do you think you heard when Vader enters the screen? What are your thoughts?

TR in Conversation with Estevan:
I heard a laser type of sound thing going on there, even that breathing, Darth Vader’s breathing, it doesn’t sound like it’s friendly.
The footsteps I hear approaching
There was all that explosions going on, There was that gong sound, and then all those horns,
so something’s happened. And again, with the footsteps,
But then there was another tone that’s sort of underneath that where I’m feeling that, I was drawn to that.

Estevan:
That, tone underneath comes in when Vader is walking into the scene, and it’s a low rumble. And so films will often use, especially when in the theater use a low rumble for emphasis. In the beginning, we don’t feel a lot of low frequency rumble there, but as soon as Vader comes in, the lasers get quiet. We we have emphasis on his breathing, footsteps and a low rumble. And so that was helping to communicate a tone without the need for any additional dialog to tell you how to feel about it,

TR:
So instead of that ominous music we replace it with this:
— Cartoon music

And we change Darth Vaders footsteps to this…
— A child stepping in bouncy, squeaky slippers.
TR:
Laughs! I’m having way too much fun.

Estevan:
Here’s an interesting scene from Punch Drunk Love, but I think it’s a little bit complicated. I enjoy it because it’s showing a bit of the range of how to work with musical score and sound. So in this scene, we’re going to hear an instrument called a harmonium, which is a type of organ instrument playing a melody. We’re going to hear a lot of environmental sounds, which is part of the sound design. And the sound design and the score become a little bit blurry at some point. Iin this scene, a man in a blue suit and a woman in red dress or leaving a restaurant and walking to a parking lot to go to their car at night.
A big 18 wheeler is driving by them and their breaks make a sound that follows the melody of the score that you hear. And I always found this to be a really fascinating type of decision, and it’s subtle, like, I don’t really think anyone watching this movie for the first time would have any reason to notice. I really enjoyed the score so that’s why I may have noticed it the first time.
I realized, oh the scene is communicating in this almost fantasy way that this 18 wheeler is making music due to the way it’s driving.

— Beep! “Take 2″ Film clabboard!
— Scene from Punch Drunk Love

Estevan”
It’s an interesting detail it’s like they made it sound like it’s in the background. It’s not a real instrument. They probably just sampled a truck, and then changed the pitches and played it on the keyboard.

TR in Conversation with Estevan:
Are there certain filmmakers that are known to do this more than others, or is it just sort of random that you notice this?

Estevan:
I don’t think there’s enough there doing it. I think the reason none of filmmakers may be doing it is either there’s budgetary constraints, time constraints, certain limits on that type of creative pursuit. The sort of filmmakers that have done it more consistently would be David Lynch who had the practice of doing that regularly in his films. And then I think often people working with Hans Zimmer. I don’t know if Hans Zimmer brings his own sound design team, but you hire Hans Zimmer for particular things, it’s going to be some sort of big project a lot of times. And so the sound design is often working with him.

The director of Blade Runner is the same directors is dune. Denis Villeneuve. I would say he also is often trying to merge sound design and score.

There’s other directors who’ve done it. They’re just doing it for one particular film and so it’s not obvious to me as to whether or not this is a theme in their work.

TR:
For those interested in learning more about sound design whether for access or just because, Estevan has some suggestions.

Estevan”
There are other books about listening and about appreciating sound, which then connects to the topic of film or anything that deals with sound. I’m not going to recommend a book. But rather, I think if you look into any of the writings or teachings, including YouTube videos on individuals such as Pauline Oliveros, who promotes this idea that she calls deep listening. I think that helps a person understand a bit of the philosophy or way to listen. And I think that can inform any part of your life when it comes to the process of listening.

And then you have individuals such as John Cage, who also promoted a bit of the philosophy of us trying to understand or reconsider what music is, and what is this thing we call music. So if you look up any of their teachings or interviews in which they get to express their ideas, I think those two individuals provide a foundational questions about sound and music,.

TR:
Anyone Interested in a career in sound design?

Estevan:
It should be acknowledged that AI is taking up a lot of the oxygen right now, which is a bit of a shame. But putting aside generative AI, there’s an industry of just creating sounds, creating samples, providing it to people. There are people out there who do field recording, who just go out to locations, record environments and share them or even sell them. And there’s individuals like me, and I think I’m hyper niche category where I’ve enjoyed the practice of just listening to recordings of places and things. So I think there’s a lot there when it comes to making sounds, crafting sounds for musicians, and even getting some music software, and then designing sounds in that music software, saving these presets, selling presets.

TR:
As we know all too well, AI is coming for every industry.
— Willhelm scream

Estevan
t’s definitely another conversation that I’ve spent some years discussing it, but I’m still trying to really muster up the energy to continue finding new words, yeah,

TR in Conversation with Estevan:
It sucks. There you go. There’s two words,

The two laught.

TR:
Big shout out to Estevan Carlos Benson. You can listen to some of his music and find out more about his projects at his website, EstevanCarlos.com.

Estevan:
spelled E, S, T, E, V, as in Victor, a, n, C, A, R, L, O, s.com.

TR in Conversation with Estevan:
People who take the time to come on to the podcast and they share their experiences, I gotta let you know…

— You’re Official

Music begins: A piano synth loop that leads to a strong kick and driving beat.
TR:
In 2014 I introduced you to this podcast | It’s a passion project, that means all love, no cash
Over 10 years bringing you nothing but facts | my goal for this has always been impact!
I invite a guest, take a topic tailor it just for you | a disability perspective always shining through
Thanks to my guest for sharing your time with me, You’re official | Reid My Mind Radio Family… RAH!

Official, uh uh official | Official, uh uh official !
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You’re Official! | Reid My Mind Radio Family!

Official, uh uh official | Official, uh uh official !
Now whose official? | Official, uh uh official
Estevan carlos benson
You’re Official! Reid My Mind Radio Family!

For all y’all thinking, hmmm, what can I do| I wrote a checklist so you can become official too
Sample: “One” Chuck D!
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(Applause)
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Follow or subscribe wherever you get podcasts!
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That’s R to the E I
Sample: D! And that’s me in the place to be! Slick Rick
Like my last name!
— Reid My Mind Radio Outro
Peace

Estevan”
I appreciate it. Yeah. I really do.
— Audio from Batman

Even though there are lots of sound libraries with pre recorded sounds for all sorts of situations, films with larger budgets continue to customize their sound design.

TR in Conversation with Estevan:
Again, the idea behind this episode is to help ad users really think more about audio and get more from a film.
So think about how we can interpret what’s taking place on screen, via the audio.
So I want to know about some of the basics that we should be listening for when we’re consuming visual content.

Like that creaking door. Something’s about to happen. Get out of there.

(The two laugh)

TR:
I know, who am I to talk about a creeking door. That was my actual door in the intro.
But the joke was right there.

Estevan:
So we’re asking, what is the sound designer doing that they hope the audience may listen for. And I think what’s interesting about that question is normally, the sound designer recognizes and acknowledges some of the detail they’re putting in there will not be heard at a conscious level.

Our brains or mind has to filter out a lot of information that we’re dealing with as we’re navigating spaces and experiences. So when we’re listening to anything, we’re not really able, nor necessarily should we be hearing every single thing all at once. So the sound designer has to work with that in mind they’re going to craft something, and the audience may sort of hear it consciously, but sort of won’t hear it.
So the audience can tell ourselves to listen to everything. I think one way to do that is to see if your mind can focus on the quiet sounds during moments that are loud.

TR:
We’re talking about active listening.

Estevan:
For example, you may have someone like shouting and yelling, but there may be quiet sounds in the background or in between that might tell you some of the story. That might be the subtlety that the director and sound designer are trying to express. I find in some scenes where there’s a lot of activity multiple people talking over each other and things like that, there can be subtle sounds in between here and there that are helping to express the scene, but easy to overlook because you’re trying to listen to the dialog. And then I think other sounds we sometimes may easily overlook that one can’t pay attention to, are the environmental sounds, the tones of a space, room tones and so forth, that can help give you context. And are not just there to tell you a place, but may also be there to represent a mood sometimes.

TR:
My home office used to be right off the kitchen on the main floor. I was very aware of any cars or trucks that drove into my driveway which was on the opposite side of the house.
This is active listening in my daily life.

Something I think I unknowingly trained myself to do because I want to knowif someone is entering my space. Eh yo, back up son!

I’m certain many of you in the family are more experienced active listeners.

TR in Conversation with Estevan:
I’m hoping that this is helpful, because there’s so much that we miss from a film that’s going on visually, and it would be nice, like, if there’s more to pick up from that, again, just beyond the AD.

Estevan:
That’s exactly it, that that’s what you’re describing. The car in the driveway sounds like it’d be a little bit subtle. You’re describing how your mind and our minds in general, can be attuned to certain things. So the issue isn’t so much that the car pulling into the driveway may be exceptionally loud. It may not be, but your mind is able to observe it, and then it is set up in so that upon. Observation, it becomes an important detail to you, and so you notice it.
For other folks, their mind is not a tune, and so they won’t notice it at all, And that is the interesting challenge of listening to a film, especially for the first time, there’s so much that you can miss, the mind becoming attuned to the details of first experience. I can’t imagine that being particularly easy at all.

TR:
Definitely not easy, it will take some real practice. Personally, I’ll start with a film that I’m already familiar with. Of course, not all films pay as much atttention to sound, but this exercise could probably be done with a lot of films.

The worst possible outcome, I revisit some familiar content again.
But the potential benefit could be additional access and perspective as well as another way to explore the world.

Estevan:
I don’t imagine the sound designer is having to put in a lot of nuance or detail into the sound design. But then some films they absolutely may be doing that. And so there actually may be a lot there to find and to listen for.

TR in Conversation with Estevan:
so what are some common examples of things that sound designers put in that can help interpret a story? There’s the obvious , that creepy music that comes on when something’s about to happen. What are some things that we could recognize?

Estevan:
Well, the first thing that came to mind right now, which is really, really silly, but you almost have to get it out of the way, is the trope, kind of the inside joke from sound designers, which is the Wilhelm scream that is put into probably hundreds of films at this point. I don’t know if you’ve heard of the Wilhelm scream?

TR:
You may not recognize the name, but I’m sure many of you heard it.

Estevan:
I believe there’s some 1950s film Western, and in this scene, some cowboy is shot off of his horse. He falls off and he screams. That scream has been resampled probably hundreds of times and used in so many films.

Estevan:
Every new film you see, especially if it’s an action film, you can attune your ears to hear it.

TR:
It’s not just westerns.

— Sound of door slowly opening
— Ominous scary music

Over the years the scream could be heard in all sorts of genres.
AD: A seven foot green creature with scalely skin with huge red eyes and a mouth filled with sharp fangs enters the Reid My Mind Radio studio.
The creature approaches Thomas bearing it’s fangs and raises it’s hands with nails as sharp and long as machetes.
TR:
… Sci fi, comedy…
(Fearfully)
Who is there?What do you want?
Oh my , no, no, no!
— Wilhelm Scream.

– Promo –
TR:
Reid My Mind Radio Family, onn August 27th at 2PM ET, one of our family members, Justice Shorter, is hosting Portraits & Portals – a powerful art showcase uplifting disabled artists of color and disabled disaster survivors of color.

(Filtered Voice) I’m one of the artists who was paired with a disaster survivor to help tell their story.

It takes place online on August 27 at 2 PM ET.
Hosted by The Partnership & Seeded Ground.
You can register at : https://tinyurl.com/portraitsportals.
Or, head on over to this episodes blog post at ReidMyMind.com and I’ll link you to the registration.

Back to the Episode
– End Promo –

Estevan:
For traditional horror structures, there’s emphasis of silence or quiet tones before climax.
It’s something we noticed where the person is walking down the dark hallway, and previously, where we heard loud environmental sounds, room tones. All of a sudden we no longer hear that. All of a sudden, we’re hearing maybe an exaggerated silence or a soft tone, and that’s how we anticipate that it’s trying to lead to something.

TR:
I’m okay everybody! (Giggles)
I just wanted to bring Estevan’s example to life.
The sound design plays a part in how we react. It’s what causes you to talk back to the screen.

Girl you better run, he’s right behind you. Run, run! Augh dang, get up.
I wonder if there’s a name for the inevitable fall when a woman is being chased on screen?

Estevan:
And then there are less obvious scenes where you could re watch something and be like, oh, wait a minute, maybe those sounds we heard just a moment ago were relating to this. I imagine that could happen in some films.

TR:
I remember watching a movie where a person was hit by a train. It wasn’t until that moment where I recalled hearing the train off in the distance at the beginning of the scene.
The subtle sound of the train was a foreshadowing of what was soon to come.

Estevan:
yeah, that’s a good example, and it’s reminding me of a film I saw.

They had some sound design that I would describe as very organic, meaning it didn’t clearly sound like some sort of synthesized sound. It also wasn’t really meant to represent a synthesized sound.
It sounded like objects moving in a space. Think of how wind chimes have kind of this smooth but kind of moving sound to it, like one chime followed by another.
I would say initially, you may or may not notice it to some extent as a part of the environment, but as the film continued, you would notice some emphasis on it during some moments, and you’d realize, oh, it’s that sound again, but in the scene, they were not visually showing what it is. It was meant to represent something, but I don’t necessarily know what the director’s intent was.
I think it was a good example of the director and sound designer communicating something which, in my opinion, I think that it was mostly communicating feeling.

I found myself super intrigued by, like, Oh, wow. What? What is that object, you know, yeah, you know, really, really interesting. Yeah,

TR in Conversation with Estevan:
Often in a film, there are these scenes they’re putting stuff in there and, they might represent something, or maybe they don’t, but they’re there for you to sort of take, right? And I don’t necessarily think about that with audio all the time. I feel like there’s another level of enjoyment, there’s another level of even just interest right in a film that you can gather audibly.

TR:
Imagine, you’re watching a film and the story isn’t really doing it for you, but the sound, now that sort of has it’s own thing going on.

Estevan:
Yeah, without a doubt.

The recent dune movies are for me okay. I’m fine with the story. I have a feeling the book is highly engaging.
I find the direction of the films to be effective. They’re lovely, but I’m honestly just so entranced by the score and sound design that I just really enjoy listening to it. And there are films where I will just buy it, because I really enjoy listening.

TR:
To be clear, Estevan is referring to both the music of the film or the sound track and the sound design.

Estevan:
You can buy the score for these films. You can’t buy the sound design, and I absolutely hate that. There are some films where the marriage between the two to me is so special, so beautiful, but you cannot gain access to the sound design. If I could listen to some films with zero dialog. There’s some films I only want to hear the sounds and the score. So sometimes I will struggle to ignore the dialog, but I’m really trying to hear the sound design and the score.

TR in Conversation with Estevan:
I wonder if there are any examples that we can maybe walk through to illustrate some of the sound design that goes on.

Estevan:
Sure, yeah.

Estevan:
So here we have Star Wars Episode Four from 1977 Walter Murch worked on this. He’s the one who was interviewed in conversations with Walter Murch.

This is when Vader comes in. A comment in YouTube says that Mark Hamill asked George whether or not this scene needed more exposition, this is supposedly hamills quote. Aren’t you going to cut to two characters saying, Who is that? That’s the Dark Lord of the Sith, because Hamill wasn’t sure that the audience would understand that this was a bad guy. And so this is a really interesting scene, because it’s the sound and the music that helps us understand that.

— Film clabboard “And Action”
— clip here…

TR:
George in this case is of course George Lucas, director of Star Wars.

George replied and I quote” Bruh, mind you’re business and watch this.”
Ok, maybe not a quote. But I bet he was thinking it.

Estevan:
George felt that yeah, just the sound in the visual would tell the audience enough of how to interpret it. What do you think you heard when Vader enters the screen? What are your thoughts?

TR in Conversation with Estevan:
I heard a laser type of sound thing going on there, even that breathing, Darth Vader’s breathing, it doesn’t sound like it’s friendly.
The footsteps I hear approaching
There was all that explosions going on, There was that gong sound, and then all those horns,
so something’s happened. And again, with the footsteps,
But then there was another tone that’s sort of underneath that where I’m feeling that, I was drawn to that.

Estevan:
That, tone underneath comes in when Vader is walking into the scene, and it’s a low rumble. And so films will often use, especially when in the theater use a low rumble for emphasis. In the beginning, we don’t feel a lot of low frequency rumble there, but as soon as Vader comes in, the lasers get quiet. We we have emphasis on his breathing, footsteps and a low rumble. And so that was helping to communicate a tone without the need for any additional dialog to tell you how to feel about it,

TR:
So just imagine instead of the low drone, the ominous footstepps, we replace all that with
— three stooges music
— squeaky

It’s a whole different vibe!

Estevan:
Yeah, yeah, absolutely. You wouldn’t necessarily know what to think.
You might even think like, oh, is Vader here to help, it could have been some other way to interpret it.

And I think that little rumble also really, really helps, because especially when you feel it physically, it just gets your attention.
So I think that’s a good classic scene. I believe Walter Murch was involved with that one. Okay, I can give you another example.

Here’s an interesting scene from punch drunk love, but I think it’s a little bit complicated. I enjoy it because it’s showing a bit of the range of how to work with musical score and sound. So in this scene, we’re going to hear an instrument called a harmonium, which is a type of organ instrument playing a melody. We’re going to hear a lot of environmental sounds, which is part of the sound design. And the sound design and the score become a little bit blurry at some point. Iin this scene, a man in a blue suit and a woman in red dress or leaving a restaurant and walking to a parking lot to go to their car at night.
Estevan” 58:46
A big 18 wheeler is driving by them and their breaks make a sound that follows the melody of the score that you hear. And I always found this to be a really fascinating type of decision, and it’s subtle, like, I don’t really think anyone watching this movie for the first time would have any reason to notice. I really enjoyed the score so that’s why I may have noticed it the first time.
I realized, oh the scene is communicating in this almost fantasy way that this 18 wheeler is making music due to the way it’s driving.

— Audio

Estevan”
It’s an interesting detail it’s like they made it sound like it’s in the background. It’s not a real instrument. They probably just sampled a truck, and then changed the pitches and played it on the keyboard.

TR in Conversation with Estevan:
Are there certain filmmakers that are known to do this more than others, or is it just sort of random that you notice this?

Estevan:
I don’t think there’s enough there doing it. I think the reason none of filmmakers may be doing it is either there’s budgetary constraints, time constraints, certain limits on that type of creative pursuit. The sort of filmmakers that have done it more consistently would be David Lynch who had the practice of doing that regularly in his films. And then I think often people working with Hans Zimmer. I don’t know if Hans Zimmer brings his own sound design team, but you hire Hans Zimmer for particular things, it’s going to be some sort of big project a lot of times. And so the sound design is often working with him.

The director of Blade Runner is the same directors is dune. Denis Villeneuve. I would say he also is often trying to merge sound design and score.

There’s other directors who’ve done it. They’re just doing it for one particular film and so it’s not obvious to me as to whether or not this is a theme in their work.

TR:
For those interested in learning more about sound design whether for access or just because Estevan has some suggestions.

Estevan”
There are other books about listening and about appreciating sound, which then connects to the topic of film or anything that deals with sound. I’m not going to recommend a book. But rather, I think if you look into any of the writings or teachings, including YouTube videos on individuals such as Pauline Oliveros, who promotes this idea that she calls deep listening. I think that helps a person understand a bit of the philosophy or way to listen. And I think that can inform any part of your life when it comes to the process of listening.

And then you have individuals such as John Cage, who also promoted a bit of the philosophy of us trying to understand or reconsider what music is, and what is this thing we call music. So if you look up any of their teachings or interviews in which they get to express their ideas, I think those two individuals provide a foundational questions about sound and music,.

TR in Conversation with Estevan:
What are some other careers for folks thinking about sound like, whether it be sound design, obviously musician composing, but are there other things that I might not be thinking of that sound design comes into play?

Estevan:
It should be acknowledged that AI is taking up a lot of the oxygen right now, which is a bit of a shame. But putting aside generative AI, there’s an industry of just creating sounds, creating samples, providing it to people. There are people out there who do field recording, who just go out to locations, record environments and share them or even sell them. And there’s individuals like me, and I think I’m hyper niche category where I’ve enjoyed the practice of just listening to recordings of places and things. So I think there’s a lot there when it comes to making sounds, crafting sounds for musicians, and even getting some music software, and then designing sounds in that music software, saving these presets, selling presets.

TR:
As we know all too well, AI is coming for every industry.
— Willhelm scream

Estevan
t’s definitely another conversation that I’ve spent some years discussing it, but I’m still trying to really muster up the energy to continue finding new words, yeah,

TR in Conversation with Estevan:
It sucks. There you go. There’s two words,

TR:
Big shout out to Estevan Carlos Benson. You can listen to some of his music and find out more about his projects at his website, EstevanCarlos.com.

Estevan:
spelled E, S, T, E, V, as in Victor, a, n, C, A, R, L, O, s.com.

TR in Conversation with Estevan:
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