Reid My Mind

TR:
Greetings family!
And welcome to any new comers. Y’all are family too now.

Stay tuned, I’ll have more about how to become official members of the Reid My Mind Radio family at the end of the episode.

Some of you do know, I have the ability to read minds. If you’re suspicious about that statement, well go back to the Blind Girl Magic episode and you’ll see for yourselves. Hmm! In fact, I can read so deep into your mind, I already know you’re not only gonna enjoy this episode, you’re going to want to let all your friends know.

Why not just go ahead right now and first, make sure you’re subscribed or following the podcast. Second, go ahead and hit that share button and say something like, “Hey friend, I’m listening to this podcast I just heard about recently. I thought it was about audio description, but it’s actually so much more than that.”

Now, send it to someone you love. I mean, if you really love them.

Filtered as if a thought) T, the love thing might be a bit too much.

I just think you’re really going to want to share the podcast. Fine, you’ll see.

— Reid My Mind Radio Theme Music

Nic:
Hey, I’m Nic Novicki. I’m a little person with a bit of a beard going on right now, and I’m wearing a black shirt. My pronouns are he, him his, and I’m a comedian, actor, writer, producer, and I’m the founder and director of the Easterseals disability film challenge,

TR:
If you’re not familiar with the Easterseals Disability Film Challenge (EDFC) you should be.

EDFC is a filmmaking competition that provides a platform that aims to increase representation of people with disabilities both in front of and behind the camera.

The challenge emphasizes authentic storytelling and provides mentorship and educational opportunities.

It’s an opportunity to showcase disabled talent in front and behind the camera and gain exposure in the entertainment industry.

Founder Nic Novicki, has been in over 50 television shows and movies Among them, HBO’s Boardwalk Empire.

— Scene from Boardwalk Empire with Nic and Steve Buscemi.

Nic:
The majority of my work has been self driven, with me writing and producing and creating my own content, because I’m three foot 10, and ultimately, nobody was creating the kind of stuff for me through the traditional system. I wasn’t getting the opportunities through regular auditions that I wanted. So I started doing it myself.

TR:
Nic reaped the rewards of doing that work and wants the same for others.

Nic:
I remember 12 years ago being like, why aren’t more people with disabilities creating their own work? Because it created all these opportunities for me, and I’ve always felt a common bond, not only to other little people, but to people with other disabilities, whether you’re blind, you’re deaf, you have an invisible disability or wheelchair user.

I just think there’s so much talent within our community. So that’s what made me create the disability film challenge.

TR:
What Nic initially thought would be a one time thing has turned into an annual event.

We can’t actually talk about the film challenge without learning more about Nic’s own career and experience. As you’ll see, they’re tied together.
TR in Conversation with Nic:
So let’s go back a little bit, because I’m interested in how you got started.
You’re a stand up comedian and actor. So what came first, acting or comedy?

Nic:
I really started doing a version of Stand Up Comedy when I was a little kid, because I used to raise money for Little People of America, and I would do these talks at Rotary Clubs. Now I was so small at that time. I’m still three foot 10, but when I was a kid, I was so small. So I go behind this podium, and there’d never be anything for me to stand on. So I’d always make a joke about it. I go, Hey, who forgot the stool? And everybody would start dying because I’m a little kid and I’m heckling the organizer.
I realized in that moment that, hey, now everybody’s listening when I’m talking.

They’re entertained, and now they’re listening to what I have to say.

TR:
Recognizing the power and the strength in who you are early in life is a gift.
As a young child Nic had aspirations of playing professional sports.

Nic:
Even though I’m a little person and was always so much smaller than everybody I played in all the local sports and then all of a sudden, when I went to junior high, everybody got way too big. Also I had more things related to my dwarfism, so I was having a hard time walking. So I decided to find theater, and I loved it. And so I was doing plays all through middle school and high school, and at that time, I thought I was just gonna do that for fun, because I got a scholarship to go to business school.
But then my first week of college, I found stand up comedy, and I never looked back.

TR:
Shout out to Temple University. (T U!)
I’m a proud Dad of a Temple grad!

Let’s hear more about that first experience with stand up comedy.

Nic:
As a little person, comedy is for me.

When people are going to say something about me, I’ll deflect, and I’ll do a joke. I always knew how to kind of use comedy to diffuse the situation and to sort of be like my turtle shell.

— Music begins A synth crescendos into a bouncy groove.

First week of college and I’m going on a date with a girl that was also a little person. And so we go to this comedy club, and we get sat in the front row. And I’ve never been to a comedy show. I’m just turned 19.

So we go in the front row, and every single comedian, this is the open mic night, like, look at that. It’s Willow and willows wife, and they’re just cracking on us every time. And she was upset by it, but I was just like laughing along. Whatever, it is what it is.

The host comes up and goes, if you want to come back next week, you could tell your side.

TR:
I have my own experience sitting in the front row of a comedy show. This was before blindness and fortunately, the comedian was nice to me. Some might say I have a don’t mess with me face.
But trust me, there’s no protection from comedians. Never sit in the front row!

Nic:
I know you got listeners from. All over the country and all over the world. The Northeast there’s a different energy in New York, New Haven, Philadelphia, Boston, people don’t just keep what they’re thinking in their head. They always say it out loud, hey, look, he’s little. Look at that man. How old are you? What’s up? Are you blind?

TR:
My first reaction, defend the east coast, but I just can’t yet. Let’s keep going.

Nic:
I think that there’s a good thing about openness, so I prefer to just let things be out in the open. That’s the way I’ve always been. I’m not going to let you upset me because you said something about me. I don’t care. I am little.
We don’t need to be weirded out or concerned about why I’m the way I am. I am the way I am, and it is the way I am.

TR:
I love that perspective. But at the same time, for my east coasters, we don’t always have to say what’s on our mind. At least, let it simmer in before you let it out of your mouth. To Nic’s point, there is value in the conversation.

Nic:
I think there’s a different energy sometimes when people are staring and they won’t say anything, rather than asking a question, and then moving on with where we’re at in the moment, socially or professionally, I think it’s important to be upfront and open.

I’ve always said let my comedy help elevate that so that again, now I’m breaking the ice with a joke, and now we’re moving on.

TR:
Let’s get back to Nic being invited to share his perspective on stage at the comedy club’s open mic.
Spoiler, he went back.

Nic:
I sign up, and I just tell everything from my point of view.
Growing up, being little, I can’t reach this.

It gave me something that was just addictive. It was the ability for me to tell my point of view of life, to talk about my experience, some of which was just me being a teenager, me having a hard time.
I had literally broke up with that girl in that week.
So not only was I just talking about my life as a little person,

I’m just complaining about things that were relatable to anybody.
I fell in love with it.

— Music ends

TR:
It’s not just about knowing what you like, it’s what moves you. And don’t under estimate the value in self awareness.

Nic:
I’m not necessarily the greatest comedian in the world or the greatest actor in the world, but I am good at meeting people and selling them about what I want to do, and an idea and a passion and why we should all work together. So really, at the end of the day, I’m kind of a connector. That’s what I am as a filmmaker, as a producer. I put people together. I don’t usually have access to the money or a lot of the other stuff, but what I think I am pretty good at is selling my passion for comedy and my passion for acting and it’s the same passion that’s there for the disability community.

TR:
The Easterseals Disability Film Challenge combines Nic’s passions for film, the disability community and self determination.

Nic:
You oftentimes in Hollywood, get put in a box whether you have a disability or whether you don’t, and I think when you do have a disability, when you’re a little person, you get put into that box for little people roles.

I wasn’t getting those media auditions to be the guy that gets the girl, or the boss, or the kind of great roles that up and coming actor would want to get. I think I was limited in those kind of auditions.

TR:
Meanwhile, Nic had options, including business school and opportunities to work on wall street.

Nic:
I did this because I love to do it. So for me, it was always about how can I do the kind of projects that I want to do.

I always grew up being a fan of The Godfather. I was like, Look, no one’s gonna write me into that role, so I need to write it for myself,

TR in Conversation with Nic:
So what was the first role that you wrote for yourself since you started doing that?

Nic:
I was writing a web series.
I did something called the urban Guardian…
— Audio from Urban Guardian

… and it was a guy who wasn’t a superhero. He didn’t really have any superpowers, but he just liked to wear this outfit to try to get girls.
It’s just me kind of running around, and I can’t really fix things, and I’m trying to date.

So I always kind of thought of ways to just write something so that I could be on a date or in a romantic situation or the gangster in roles that I wanted to play.

TR:
Fortunately, Nic was aware that a career in acting is uncertain. He began writing and producing his own material after landing what many would perceive as a major win.

— Scene from Nic in the Sopranos

Nic:
I booked a role on The Sopranos when I was pretty young. It wasn’t like a gangster. I was just a nightclub manager.

It was pretty amazing. But I was like, now I need to show myself on what it could look like to be a gangster.

TR:
Nic didn’t become a made man or the head of a crime family.
Of course, I’m talking about movie roles.
I don’t know what he does in his personal life.
What’s really important though, he found a blue print in his process for creating the film.

Nic:
I was able to put people together, a real, high quality camera person, a writer, and I just sold them in my vision. Hey, can you help me for this one day.

You need to figure out one day, one weekend, that you’re going to do something.
The camera person I need you on this one day, and the editor I need you for this very short period of time.
So that’s always been my philosophy.

TR:
An optimistic way of looking at the world and people in my humble opinion, is actually pretty important to getting things done.

Nic:
I think that people want to help.
I think overall, for the disability community, people that don’t have disabilities, I have always found want to help. They want to be there as an ally.

TR:
The next step in this grass roots or a guerilla style approach to production is a hard deadline.

Nic:
Figure out how to get people so that you’re only asking for them to work at a reduced rate, or in some cases, for free, for one day.
You’re over asking if you’re trying to get people to work lower than their normal rates for extended periods of times. It’s never going to happen.

TR:
Respecting people’s time means being upfront and realistic about your ask. It also means this is your project so you need to assure everything is accounted for.

Nic:
you need to get the equipment, maybe you need to get the location, you need to plan everything out,

And I think it’s very important for you to really show your appreciation for the people that help you with this project, that help you create this vision.

TR:
Of course the appreciation cam be shown with cash money, but there’s more.

Nic:
I can write a letter. I could send a nice email. I can call him and tell him how much I appreciate him, and I can also show other people how great that person is and recommend them for other jobs.

TR in Conversation with Nic:
So that is EDFC.

Nic:
Literally! I came up with the idea initially, 12 years ago, of the disability film challenge, based on what I was doing in my own career, shortened periods of time, putting people together, getting stuff done for pretty much, I gotta be honest, for oftentimes with zero budget.
talking to restaurants about trying to get free food.
If I was paying somebody, it was a very small kit fee. So everything that the original disability film challenge was based on things that I did in my own career.

TR:
The Disability Film Challenge was formed.

Nic:
the first disability film challenge 12 years ago. I thought was just going to be a one off competition. We had five films that were created that first year. And actually the films were only done in three days. Now we have five days where you make films.

And then the disability community is like, when’s the next one? I was like, Whoa, I guess I have to do another one. So then I did year or two, and then it kept growing. And then Peter Fairley came on board as a mentor that year too.

TR:
Peter Fairley is a filmmaker, director, screenwriter, producer, and novelist.
known for films including There’s Something About Mary, Dumb and Dumber, Shallow Hal, Kingpin, and several others.
He’s also been a long time supporter of disability rights.

Nic:
So word was spreading, and then it kept growing, and then I partnered with Easterseals in 2017 Easterseals is the nation’s largest Disability Services organization. So it’s now the Easterseals disability film challenge.
Now we have 850 films that have been created from around the world over these last 12 years.

TR:
Films from around the world which means representing a global perspective of disability.

Nic:
When you talk about the word disability, one in four Americans have a disability, and that’s self identifying as having a disability, but that also includes so many different kinds of disability, little people, wheelchair users, cerebral palsy, blind, deaf, invisible disabilities, autism, Down syndrome. veteran with PTSD. All these different disabilities. And they’re all making films and showcasing their disability.

TR:
To be clear, EDFC is about disability representation behind and in front of the camera. Disability as a topic is not required.

Nic:
I’m proud to be little. I’m proud to have a disability that’s always been the way I’ve been my whole life. But when it comes to making art, I don’t necessarily always want to talk about being a little person in my own projects, I like to just let that I am a little person be another layer to the film.
Now we don’t need to address it through making comments. the medium of film addresses it for us.

TR:
Of course, those of us who are Blind require access to that identifying information.

Nic:
generally speaking, the film challenge is really an opportunity where everybody makes their own films. And I’ve always encouraged since day one, make these films as accessible as you can. Everyone should be welcome.

Just being 100% honest, my community and my place within the disability world was other little people.
That was the disability community that I grew up with and that I knew. So I grew up with little people. I went to Little People conventions.
When I started the film challenge, I didn’t know as many other disabled people.

TR:
I don’t have any hard data, but I imagine this is quite common. When I became Blind, I didn’t seek out disability organizations, I specifically sought out others who were Blind.

I think that framing can make a persons perspective of accessibility pretty narrow.

That is until you’re exposed to those different from you.

Nic:
And I think year after year, we gotta figure out, we got somebody in a wheelchair, we can’t do a Q and A and this guy’s not able to go.

TR:
In addition to physical access, we know there are those requiring sensory access.

That includes captions and audio description.

Nic:
so frankly, because of the scale, the amount of films it was daunting.
we’re always in a place between budgets, between just scaling things we’re learning, we’re learning and trying to figure out how to get things done.

— Music begins an upbeat groove.

We had a discussion, me and you, and we talked about what could be done. And I remember saying, well, we have 123 films that are created and put online within a weekend. You’re like, Whoa.

I was like, Well, what if we were to create audio description for the finalist films, and even that in a very short time frame.

TR in Conversation with Nic:
yeah, which is fitting with the Disability Film Challenge. The AD film challenge! (Laughs)

Nic:
That’s right.

TR:
We’re talking 8 days to produce description for up to 16 films

For Social Audio Description Collective that means all hands on deck.
We’re going through as much as our production process as possible with the exception of communicating with the film creators.
The EDFC team selects the finalists including best film, best director, best editing etc., but they don’t announce that until the award ceremony. Therefore, SADC needs to have all the films described and returned to the EDFC team in time for the ceremony, where the finalist films are viewed, with open audio description.

Cool, but I’m not going to act as if Fifteen described films out of over 100 is a complete solution.
I will say it’s a significant start.

Nic:
I’m 42 years old. I was born before the Americans with Disabilities Act existed, to be honest, the ADA is here, but not necessarily always enforced. For me as a little person, when I go into the airports in LA, I can’t wash my hands in a lot of places. I can’t reach buttons and I do jokes about it, but we’re living in a world that is not always fully accessible for everybody.

Look, I think access is something that evolves.

TR:
True indeed. And while we wait on that evolution, personally, I’m for doing everything we can to spark that revolution.
Which by the way should be televised, shown in theaters, streamed online, acted out on stage all with equitable access!
Including captions, description, ASL and let’s not forget enhanced transcripts for our Deafblind family.

TR in Conversation with Nic:
You can’t do it all, but these parameters that you have, sometimes they help you get it done.

AD is a lot more intensive than captions, right?
And so to ask a filmmaker, especially a filmmaker who doesn’t know anything about audio description, to ask them to sort of create this within that five day period, that’s a lot.

This is sort of a beginning.
At least it’s bringing the attention of audio description to the rest of the community. And if we are going to have access,
— Music ends.
I think the community showing that we care about each other’s access is a big deal.

Nic:
I agree.

TR:
When we, the disability community, work together to assure our own access to our content, we model the concept of interdependence and mutual aid. We set the expectation for others. It’s what EDFC is doing for film making.

You can check out all of the audio described finalists films from both 2024 and 2025 Easterseals Disability Film Challenge on YouTube. I’ll link you there directly from this episode’s blog post at ReidMyMind.com.

Nic:
Now I’m wondering too, when, frankly, like, YouTube will make it so there’s the AD button, like a CC button, so that things can come on and off.

TR:
Right now, AD consumers, you have to find the AD version of the film which has been uploaded separately with open audio description.
Unlike the interface found on other streaming networks that let you simply select the AD track.
EDFC film makers need to check both versions of their film to figure out how many people actually watched the film.

Nic:
I think it’s up to some of these tech companies meta , YouTube, to step their game up.

TR in Conversation with Nic:
I’ve been told that they have it, but they’ve been rolling it out slowly and I don’t understand why.

they should give EDF C access to this, because that would make a lot of sense.

Nic:
I think that would be awesome.

TR:
The exposure these films receive is creating even more opportunities for many involved in front and behind the camera.
In fact, the industry, the community and individuals are all simultaneously benefiting.

Nic:
The Easterseals disability film challenge. Has been a huge resource for the casting Society of America, and the casting directors and the networks and studios have been finding film challenge films, and directly reaching out to people and auditioning them for roles that don’t have to do with their disability, specifically because of the challenge and the films that are all on YouTube.

TR:
And we know, representation matters!

Nic:
Generally, we’re one fourth the population, but we’re less than 2% of on screen representation.

A major study came out that said the vast majority of those are played by non disabled actors.

TR:
EDFC is having a direct impact on improving authentic representation.

Nic:
We have so many success stories that have come for people getting hired in front of the camera this year.

Amazon, MGM Studios said, Hey, we have a role for a movie. They didn’t tell us what movie it was, but we’re looking for actors on the autism spectrum. Do you have any actors? We were able to send them several dozen films, and they ended up casting Nic Sanchez, but everybody else got auditions.

Tr:
That project, the Accountant 2.

Nic:
Same thing happened on the TV show Loudermilk, which is very popular on Netflix. Peter Farrelly said, Hey, we’re looking for a little person actress. Do you know anybody? We were able to send several dozen little people actresses, they all auditioned. And Sophia Cheyenne, a little person, actor in New York who’s so talented and has been busting her butt for years doing theater, ended up in a multi year recurring role filming in Vancouver.

TR:
And those behind the camera?

Nic:
We’ve had editors on the autism spectrum that got hired on dozens of jobs and got to meet with mentors from HBO and HBO Max. We’ve had people get development meetings. We had a deaf director, Chrissy Marshall, and she just got accepted into the Sony diverse directing program, Sony Pictures Television, so she’s getting in front of people, and literally from the challenge and now spotlighted to possibly being able to direct TV. And through this amazing program, CBS has put people into casting initiatives, both as actors, but also learning how to be a casting director.

TR:
Shining a light on these films can lead to a wider distribution.

Nic:
Film festivals reach out to us and they say, Hey, we’re a festival here in the US, and we want to screen your film. We’re a festival in Europe. We’re a festival in India, we’ve gotten contacted by festivals in Russia, all over the world, they want to screen these films. And the coolest thing is, everybody owns their own film, so they have the ability to screen and submit these films and turn these films into larger projects.

TR:
EDFC is even helping with that.

Nic:
We have grants that have been awarded to film Challenge participants so they could further develop their projects.

We were able to give $25,000 grants out this year for film challenge films alumni from the past to be able to further develop their projects.

TR:
In addition to the exposure, the grants, participating in the film challenge adds to a persons demo reel, increases their network and provides real world experience.

And for any other film festivals listening, please take note, finalist also receive the access assets; i.e. caption and audio description files.
This is extremely helpful in general, but also for those festivals that require accessibility. Shout out to y’all!

Let’s be real, you don’t get the growth and results that EDFC has achieved over the past 12 years without Nic getting out there and promoting this event.

Nic:
I’m thinking about it at night. I’m waking up, I’m going to events. I always have a flyer on me, and that’s the way it started.

I hustled big time. I went to film festivals. I would put flyers up outside of places. Just with scotch tape outside of banks and restaurants and things where I didn’t have permission, I just put it out there.

(The two laugh.)

TR:
Nic made sure to let me know he had some help.

Nic:
I got to give my wife, who’s also a little person, teal, huge credit and shout out. She was there with me in the beginning for our first editing workshop that we had. We were making sandwiches.
I would promote
You can learn how to edit for free, and we got free sandwiches.

TR in Conversation with Nic:
So all of that was on your own dime, I’m assuming?

Nic:
Oh yeh. I was maxing out credit card(s).

We have a lot of amazing sponsors now.
Easterseales been amazing and really helped me escalate the challenge.
We have to be creative still because things get really expensive. We try to make everything for free and accessible.

We’re doing everything we can to try to push the community forward and push representation forward.
The film challenge is a community.
We get together at events. Oftentimes the event is supposed to end at this time, and we’re still all there. We get kicked out eventually.
It’s a beautiful community, and we just love being around each other and supporting each other. And even though the challenge has now gotten so competitive, I think people are so supportive of each other.

TR:
with all the effort Nic puts into the film challenge, he still finds time to continue working as a touring comedian.

Nic:
I’m lucky to still be working a lot as a comedian. I tour with Nate Bargatze.
I’m still working as an actor a lot, but I work on this challenge every single day of the week.
There’s another kind of feeling that I get in my stomach and in my heart when I know that other people are following their dreams through this. I never really would have thought it would have snowballed like that.
I’m just the luckiest guy in the world that one, I’ve been able to professionally be a comedian and an actor for over 20 years. People that I work with, people that I have professional relationships with will agree to come on and serve as a mentor for the challenge.
I feel very blessed.

TR:
With so much of the Easterseals Disability Film Challenge being based on Nic’s personal career and experience, what else can be learned from his hustle?

Nic:
It’s just baby steps. the same for my own career and stand-up. Doing fit for free, sleeping in Penn Station, going back and forth from Philly to New York, you know, and paying to do comedy, because it would cost more for me to get to a gig than I would make.

TR in Conversation with Nic
I do not endorse sleeping at Penn Station.

(The two laugh)

Nic:
It’s a gradual process. Don’t put too much pressure on yourselves of saying I’m only giving myself three months, and if I don’t make it, that’s it. No, no, no. You made it because you’re doing it.
You make your film and if there’s some sound issues or something else, don’t worry. You made something. You put it out there in the world. You can always do another color pass or something else. But I always tell people to make sure it gets out there. Because you’re never going to get discovered if you don’t put yourself out there.
The community, the world wants you. You belong, get yourself out there, build your team.

TR:
I know several of you are listening and want to make a film for next year’s challenge.

Nic:
Step 1, register and put it out there the same way I did for myself.
You always can use your own network to further yourself in your mission and put people together.

TR:
At the time of this recording, the dates for 2026 Easterseals Disability Film Challenge aren’t available just yet, but head on over to DisabilityFilmChallenge.com for more information and follow them on social media …

Nic:
@Disability film challenge
And also follow me. See me do comedy or projects I’m doing as an artist too, at Disability film challenge for the challenge, or at
Nic Novicki. N I C N O V I C K I.

I’ll be doing shows at the flappers comedy club. So if you’re in LA, send me a message, I may be able to get you a comp or a discounted ticket.
I’m in the TV show, bad thoughts that just dropped on Netflix, so you can see me in episodes four and five of that. I have some other projects I can’t talk about because I just signed an NDA, but I am gonna act in a project the small part, which I’m very excited about. And I’m gonna keep making my own stuff too. So I’m not just preaching it.

— Music begins: A piano synth loop that leads to a strong kick and driving beat.

TR:
Shout out to Nic Novicki, disabled film makers and those who are actively working to increase authentic representation.

And shout out to Social Audio Description Collective at SocialAudioDescription.com.

TR in conversation with Nic:
When folks come on the podcast and share their experience and knowledge with the family, they themselves become part of the family so you Nic Novicki…(echoes)

“You’re Official”

TR:
In 2014 I introduced you to this podcast | It’s a passion project, that means all love, no cash
Over 10 years bringing you nothing but facts | my goal for this has always been impact!
I invite a guest, take a topic tailor it just for you | a disability perspective always shining through
Thanks to my guest for sharing your time with me, You’re official | Reid My Mind Radio Family… RAH!

Official, uh uh official | Official, uh uh official !
Official, uh uh official | Official, uh uh official
You’re Official! | Reid My Mind Radio Family!

Official, uh uh official | Official, uh uh official !
Now whose official? | Official, uh uh official
Nic, Ni, Nic
Nic Novicki
You’re Official! Reid My Mind Radio Family!
Nic
I love it.

For all y’all thinking, hmmm, what can I do| I wrote a checklist so you can become official too
Sample: “One” Chuck D!
You just can’t be down if you don’t follow or subscribe | That’s the number 1 way to join this tribe!
Sample: “Two” Chuck D!
Shout it out! Tell all your friends and your foes | That’s the way we help eachother and the podcast grows
Sample: “Three” Chuck D!
Buy merch, shirt or hoodie for yourself or yourboo | Now look at that, you’re official too! Woo!

Official, uh uh official | Official, uh uh official !
Now whose official? | Official, uh uh official
You’re Official! Reid My Mind Radio Family!

Official, uh uh official | Official, uh uh official
I said who’s official? | Official, uh uh official
(Applause)
You’re Official! | Reid My Mind Radio Family!

There it is!

Follow or subscribe wherever you get podcasts!
You know how we do, right?
Transcripts and more are at ReidMyMind.com
And so there’s never, ever, ever, ever any confusion
That’s R to the E I
Sample: D! And that’s me in the place to be! Slick Rick
Like my last name!
— Reid My Mind Radio Outro
Peace

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Sample: “This is a journey into sound.” eric B and Rakim

TR:
— Sound of the Reid My Mind Radio studio door opening. (A bit of squeak going on with that door!)

Casually singing to himself… It’s time! Time to make a change, we are the people who can do it!

Where are my headphones…
(takes a deep breath)
What’s up family, welcome back to another episode of Reid My Mind Radio.
First time here? Let me tell you about a few things you need to know.

I’m Thomas Reid, host and producer of this here podcast.
Nice to meet you!

We’re in the midst of the Flipping the Script on Audio Description season. This is where we go beyond the mainstream audio description conversation to talk about how this art impacts the community. To some extent, today’s episode is a continuation from the last featuring Kemal Gorey.
In that episode, we saw how audio description was a tool for Kemal to compose the score for a silent film.
That got me thinking, hmm, do we as Blind consumers of visual content, listen to sound and music in a film in a way that helps us interpret that content?

Today’s episode may not feel like what you’ve come to expect from Flipping the Script, but I invite you to listen, carefully.

— Reid My Mind Theme Music

Estevan:
Hello. My name is Estevan Carlos Benson, and I live in Los Angeles, originally from Texas. I am an artist, educator, musician and composer. Right now I teach at USC Art Center, College of Design and Pasadena City College in the Southern California area. My pronouns are he, him and I am black and Mexican. Brown skin tone, beard, shaved headand about medium build wearing a brown shirt and glasses that I describe as very reminiscent of 1980s computer programmer.

TR:
Shout out to all my Black and brown brothers with bald heads and beards.
You know, every now and then I invite someone on with no personal relationship to disability.

Estevan:
The extent of my relationship is teaching subjects that deal with accessibility, something under the umbrella of user experience. It’s meant to be broad. Generally dealing with screen based experiences that could be web, but any sort of application. So it’s a little bit agnostic with the technology.

I’ve taught some classes where we’ll talk about music applications we may discuss;
how are people understanding the screen?
How do we handle things such as color blindness in order to communicate effectively. How do we deal with different aspects of vision, of legibility for the screen? And then, of course,
when it comes to the web, then we discuss the accessibility guidelines.

TR:
Today’s conversation is not about WCAG, but it is sort of related to the user experience.
AD users.

In addition to teaching, Estevan is a musician and composer.

Estevan:
Probably like most other musicians, I started off as a young person interested and intrigued by music.
I really enjoy those early years of being extremely curious.
I’m hearing music. I’m fascinated by what I hear. I took some fundamental kind of piano lessons as a preteen that held my attention to some extent.
Then eventually, I had a uncle who gave me access to a computer and early MIDI sequencer or notation software.
Just writing notation to play back generic piano sounds. As a teenager, got a synthesizer, and kind of went from there. So I’ve been making music since I was probably 16 or 17.

TR:
Estevan studied music as an undergrad and became quite passionate about the science of digital music. He continued making his own music and was encouraged to consider scoring for films.

Estevan:
So in 2020 I decided to get more involved that community. And so I’ve worked on small independent short films, documentaries, and then also got more involved with interactive music and composing for art installations.

TR:
Prior to 2020, music for film was part of Estevan’s music education.

Estevan:
I loved understanding the theoretical aspects of it and just the fundamentals. I remember reading a book from Walter Murch, who is possibly more known as an editor. He’s one of the editors of the early Star Wars films, but he’s also a sound designer. One of his books is called Conversations with Walter Murch. It’s fantastic. It was very inspiring. It was great to read someone discussing sound design in a very serious way and reflecting on how he approached it and here’s how we can all think about sound in our film.
That generally informed my approach later on.

TR:
The book, titledThe Conversations: Walter Murch and the Art of Editing Film
is available on Bookshare.org.

TR in Conversation with Estevan
Tr in Conversation with Estevan:
What exactly is sound design? How would you define that for folks?

Estevan:
You’re manipulating sound, carving and crafting sound to express or to represent. Sometimes the sound needs to be open to interpretation, and maybe a lot of interpretation. So it’s an expression, it can be mood. And then sometimes the sound is intended to represent something, it may lean towards more literal representation, similar to how there can be a tradition of visual communication between something that is abstract, open to a lot of interpretation, and then something that’s representational, that is intended to look like a thing.

TR:
So the same applies to sound.

An example of a more representational sound would be foot steps when someone is walking down a street.
While a melancholy musical score may express their mood.

Estevan:
I think when Walter Murch is talking in that book, he’s trying to help the reader understand that there is much more room for expression here than his peers or people in the past have taken seriously. Not to say that every film of the past only uses sound representationally to literally represent something, but when you have a medium that is less understood, it may be more difficult to be expressive in it.

TR:
We know society focuses much more on visuals in comparison to sound. It’s the difference between audio description and captions. We have more words to describe visuals than we do for sound. Turn on captions for your average television show or film and I can almost garuntee the sounds of the film including music will be minimally described if at all.

Like “music plays”. (Filtered voice)What’s that?

Estevan:
So I think that is one of the changes and shifts that we’ve had, I suspect, in film over these many decades of using sound in ways that can be expressive and not just hyper literal representation.

TR in Conversation with Estevan

Do sound designers, like other artists, specialize , like, a literal sound designer versus someone who’s more interpretive expressionist. Or do you have to have the ability to do both?

Estevan:
Under the umbrella of sound design, you may include someone known as the foley artist, or Foley sounds. So if you’re including that that person is leaning towards, not always, but leaning towards more representation of what is on the screen. So that does exist. But does someone have to really focus on one area or the other? Not necessarily, if you are a Foley artist or Foley person, then yes, you will be likely leaning towards representing information. But for most people who have the title of sound designer they really need to be able to move in any direction to kind of just fulfill the goals of the project.
TR:
you probably heard of Foley artists. They’re the folks who make all the sounds for the films. Literally, making the sounds.

Take your average fight scene in a movie. It’s probably going to consist of punches,
— Sample Sound of a punch.

kicks
— Sound of kicking.

and my favorite breaking tables, chairs and glass.
— Sounds of a wooden table and glass breaking.
It kind of reminds me of my latest bar fight.
It wasn’t my fault, I was just passing time and stepped into a bar for a drink. I was waiting for the bartender…

— Dream harp

Voice calls out: “Jimmy”

TR:
I tried taking a seat at the bar when all of a sudden.

— Sound of breaking glass.

TR in Bar: “Oh my bad. Please, let me buy you another drink.”

Guy in Bar:
“Look a here, we got a blind guy come knock down my beer and now says he gonna buy me another one.”

TR in Bar: “Hey man, I’m just trying to be polite. I’m not looking for any trouble.”
Guy in Bar: Ya heard that Billy Bob, blind boy says he ain’t LOOKING for trouble. Show him what we do around these parts”

— Sound of something moving through the air.

TR in Bar: Sounds like nun chucks. Seriously, I’m Blind, you’re not impressing me.
Hey man, please don’t put your hands on me. You don’t want to make me angry.
Guy in Bar: Ya heard that Billy Bob, we don’t want to make Ray Charles here angry.”

TR in Bar: Ok, this is what we’re doing today?

— Punches,kicks and glass breaking begin.
Pow! Zap! Splatt!

TR in Bar: Hey, if anyone sees the bartender, please order me a vodka cranberry while I handle these fools.

Splatt! Zap! Pow!
— Reverse dream harp.
TR:
Ok, , I don’t endorse violence in any form.
Well, some of my fondest memories involve violence.

— Audio from a fight scene in the original Batman television series with lots of Pow! Zaps! Splatt!

TR:
Today there are lots of sound libraries with pre recorded sounds for all sorts of situations,
films with larger budgets continue to customize their sound design.

— “Ah, you caught us Batman, but your crime fighting days are over.” From Batman

TR in Conversation with Estevan:
I want to know about some of the basics that we should be listening for when we’re consuming visual content.

Like that creaking door. Something’s about to happen. Get out of there.

(The two laugh)

TR:
I know, who am I to talk about a creeking door. That was my actual door in the intro.
But the joke was right there.

Estevan:
So we’re asking, what is the sound designer doing that they hope the audience may listen for. And I think what’s interesting about that question is normally, the sound designer recognizes and acknowledges some of the detail they’re putting in there will not be heard at a conscious level.

Our brains or mind has to filter out a lot of information that we’re dealing with as we’re navigating spaces and experiences. So when we’re listening to anything, we’re not really able, nor necessarily should we be hearing every single thing all at once. So the sound designer has to work with that in mind they’re going to craft something, and the audience may sort of hear it consciously, but sort of won’t hear it.
So the audience can tell ourselves to listen to everything. I think one way to do that is to see if your mind can focus on the quiet sounds during moments that are loud.

TR:
We’re talking about active listening.

Estevan:
For example, you may have someone like shouting and yelling, but there may be quiet sounds in the background or in between that might tell you some of the story. That might be the subtlety that the director and sound designer are trying to express. I find in some scenes where there’s a lot of activity multiple people talking over each other and things like that, there can be subtle sounds in between here and there that are helping to express the scene, but easy to overlook because you’re trying to listen to the dialog. And then I think other sounds we sometimes may easily overlook that one can’t pay attention to, are the environmental sounds, the tones of a space, room tones and so forth, that can help give you context. And are not just there to tell you a place, but may also be there to represent a mood sometimes.

TR:
My home office used to be right off the kitchen on the main floor. I was very aware of any cars or trucks that drove into my driveway which was on the opposite side of the house.
This is active listening in my daily life.

Something I think I unknowingly trained myself to do because I want to knowif someone is entering my space. Eh yo, back up son!

Estevan:
You’re describing how your mind and our minds in general, can be attuned to certain things. So the issue isn’t so much that the car pulling into the driveway may be exceptionally loud. It may not be, but your mind is able to observe it, and then it is set up in so that upon. Observation, it becomes an important detail to you, and so you notice it.
For other folks, their mind is not a tune, and so they won’t notice it at all, And that is the interesting challenge of listening to a film, especially for the first time, there’s so much that you can miss, the mind becoming attuned to the details of first experience. I can’t imagine that being particularly easy at all.

TR:
Definitely not easy, it will take some real practice. Personally, I’ll start with a film that I’m already familiar with. Of course, not all films pay as much atttention to sound, but this exercise could probably be done with a lot of films.

The worst possible outcome, I revisit some familiar content again.
But the potential benefit could be additional access and perspective as well as another way to explore the world.

Estevan:
I don’t imagine the sound designer is having to put in a lot of nuance or detail into the sound design. But then some films they absolutely may be doing that. And so there actually may be a lot there to find and to listen for.

TR in Conversation with Estevan:
so what are some common examples of things that sound designers put in that can help interpret a story? There’s the obvious , that creepy music that comes on when something’s about to happen. What are some things that we could recognize?

Estevan:
Well, the first thing that came to mind right now, which is really, really silly, but you almost have to get it out of the way, is the trope, kind of the inside joke from sound designers, which is the Wilhelm scream that is put into probably hundreds of films at this point. I don’t know if you’ve heard of the Wilhelm scream?

TR:
You may not recognize the name, but I’m sure many of you heard it.

Estevan:
I believe there’s some 1950s film Western, and in this scene, some cowboy is shot off of his horse. He falls off and he screams.

— Wihlelm Scream

That scream has been resampled probably hundreds of times and used in so many films.

TR:
It’s not just westerns.

— Transition
— Sound of door slowly opening
— Ominous scary ambience
— Slow footsteps

TR:
Over the years the scream could be heard in all sorts of genres.

AD: A seven foot green creature with scalely skin with huge red eyes and a mouth filled with sharp fangs enters the Reid My Mind Radio studio.
The creature approaches Thomas bearing it’s fangs and raises it’s hands with nails as sharp and long as machetes.

— Monster grunt

TR:
… Sci fi, comedy…
(Fearfully)
Who is there?What do you want?
Oh my , no, no, no!

— Monster roar
— Slashing sound
— Wilhelm Scream.
— Sound of ripping, crunching and tearing apart.

— Transition

Estevan:
For traditional horror structures, there’s emphasis of silence or quiet tones before climax.
It’s something we noticed where the person is walking down the dark hallway, and previously, where we heard loud environmental sounds, room tones. All of a sudden we no longer hear that. All of a sudden, we’re hearing maybe an exaggerated silence or a soft tone, and that’s how we anticipate that it’s trying to lead to something.

TR:
Good news everybody, I’m okay!

The sound design plays a part in how we react. It’s what causes you to talk back to the screen.

Girl you better run, he’s right behind you. Run, run! Augh dang!

Estevan:
And then there are less obvious scenes where you could re watch something and be like, oh, wait a minute, maybe those sounds we heard just a moment ago were relating to this. I imagine that could happen in some films.

TR:
I remember watching a movie where a person was hit by a train.
It wasn’t until that moment where I recalled hearing the train off in the distance at the beginning of the scene.
The subtle sound of the train was a foreshadowing of what was soon to come.

Estevan:
yeah, that’s a good example, and it’s reminding me of a film I saw. They had some sound design that I would describe as very organic, meaning it didn’t clearly sound like some sort of synthesized sound. It also wasn’t really meant to represent a synthesized sound. It sounded like objects moving in a space. Think of how wind chimes have kind of this smooth but kind of moving sound to it, like one chime followed by another.
I would say initially, you may or may not notice it to some extent as a part of the environment, but as the film continued, you would notice some emphasis on it during some moments, and you’d realize, oh, it’s that sound again, but in the scene, they were not visually showing what it is. It was meant to represent something, but I don’t necessarily know what the director’s intent was.

I think it was a good example of the director and sound designer communicating something which, in my opinion, I think that it was mostly communicating feeling. I found myself super intrigued by, like, Oh, wow. What? What is that object, you know, yeah, you know, really, really interesting. Yeah,

TR in Conversation with Estevan:
Often in a film, there are these scenes they’re putting stuff in there and, they might represent something, or maybe they don’t, but they’re there for you to sort of take, right? And I don’t necessarily think about that with audio all the time. I feel like there’s another level of enjoyment, there’s another level of even just interest right in a film that you can gather audibly.

TR:
Imagine, you’re watching a film and the story isn’t really doing it for you, but the sound, now that sort of has it’s own thing going on.

Estevan:
Yeah, without a doubt.

That’s pretty much how the recent Dune movies are for me. I’m fine with the story. I have a feeling the book is highly engaging. I find the direction of the films to be effective. They’re lovely, but I’m honestly just so entranced by the score and sound design that I just really enjoy listening to it. And there are films where I will just buy it, because I really enjoy listening.

TR:
To be clear, Estevan is referring to both the music of the film or the sound track and the sound design.

Estevan:
You can buy the score for these films. You can’t buy the sound design, and I absolutely hate that. There are some films where the marriage between the two to me is so special, so beautiful, but you cannot gain access to the sound design. If I could listen to some films with zero dialog. There’s some films I only want to hear the sounds and the score. So sometimes I will struggle to ignore the dialog, but I’m really trying to hear the sound design and the score.

TR in Conversation with Estevan:
I wonder if there are any examples that we can maybe walk through to illustrate some of the sound design that goes on.

Estevan:
Sure, yeah. So here we have Star Wars Episode Four from 1977 Walter Murch worked on this. He’s the one who was interviewed in conversations with Walter Murch.

This is when Vader comes in. A comment in YouTube says that Mark Hamill asked George whether or not this scene needed more exposition, this is supposedly hamills quote. Aren’t you going to cut to two characters saying, Who is that? That’s the Dark Lord of the Sith, because Hamill wasn’t sure that the audience would understand that this was a bad guy. And so this is a really interesting scene, because it’s the sound and the music that helps us understand that.

— Beep! “Take 1″ Film clabboard!
— clip here…

TR:
George in this case is of course George Lucas, director of Star Wars.

George replied and I quote” Bruh, mind you’re business and watch this.”
Ok, maybe not a quote. But I bet he was thinking it.

Estevan:
George felt that yeah, just the sound in the visual would tell the audience enough of how to interpret it. What do you think you heard when Vader enters the screen? What are your thoughts?

TR in Conversation with Estevan:
I heard a laser type of sound thing going on there, even that breathing, Darth Vader’s breathing, it doesn’t sound like it’s friendly.
The footsteps I hear approaching
There was all that explosions going on, There was that gong sound, and then all those horns,
so something’s happened. And again, with the footsteps,
But then there was another tone that’s sort of underneath that where I’m feeling that, I was drawn to that.

Estevan:
That, tone underneath comes in when Vader is walking into the scene, and it’s a low rumble. And so films will often use, especially when in the theater use a low rumble for emphasis. In the beginning, we don’t feel a lot of low frequency rumble there, but as soon as Vader comes in, the lasers get quiet. We we have emphasis on his breathing, footsteps and a low rumble. And so that was helping to communicate a tone without the need for any additional dialog to tell you how to feel about it,

TR:
So instead of that ominous music we replace it with this:
— Cartoon music

And we change Darth Vaders footsteps to this…
— A child stepping in bouncy, squeaky slippers.
TR:
Laughs! I’m having way too much fun.

Estevan:
Here’s an interesting scene from Punch Drunk Love, but I think it’s a little bit complicated. I enjoy it because it’s showing a bit of the range of how to work with musical score and sound. So in this scene, we’re going to hear an instrument called a harmonium, which is a type of organ instrument playing a melody. We’re going to hear a lot of environmental sounds, which is part of the sound design. And the sound design and the score become a little bit blurry at some point. Iin this scene, a man in a blue suit and a woman in red dress or leaving a restaurant and walking to a parking lot to go to their car at night.
A big 18 wheeler is driving by them and their breaks make a sound that follows the melody of the score that you hear. And I always found this to be a really fascinating type of decision, and it’s subtle, like, I don’t really think anyone watching this movie for the first time would have any reason to notice. I really enjoyed the score so that’s why I may have noticed it the first time.
I realized, oh the scene is communicating in this almost fantasy way that this 18 wheeler is making music due to the way it’s driving.

— Beep! “Take 2″ Film clabboard!
— Scene from Punch Drunk Love

Estevan”
It’s an interesting detail it’s like they made it sound like it’s in the background. It’s not a real instrument. They probably just sampled a truck, and then changed the pitches and played it on the keyboard.

TR in Conversation with Estevan:
Are there certain filmmakers that are known to do this more than others, or is it just sort of random that you notice this?

Estevan:
I don’t think there’s enough there doing it. I think the reason none of filmmakers may be doing it is either there’s budgetary constraints, time constraints, certain limits on that type of creative pursuit. The sort of filmmakers that have done it more consistently would be David Lynch who had the practice of doing that regularly in his films. And then I think often people working with Hans Zimmer. I don’t know if Hans Zimmer brings his own sound design team, but you hire Hans Zimmer for particular things, it’s going to be some sort of big project a lot of times. And so the sound design is often working with him.

The director of Blade Runner is the same directors is dune. Denis Villeneuve. I would say he also is often trying to merge sound design and score.

There’s other directors who’ve done it. They’re just doing it for one particular film and so it’s not obvious to me as to whether or not this is a theme in their work.

TR:
For those interested in learning more about sound design whether for access or just because, Estevan has some suggestions.

Estevan”
There are other books about listening and about appreciating sound, which then connects to the topic of film or anything that deals with sound. I’m not going to recommend a book. But rather, I think if you look into any of the writings or teachings, including YouTube videos on individuals such as Pauline Oliveros, who promotes this idea that she calls deep listening. I think that helps a person understand a bit of the philosophy or way to listen. And I think that can inform any part of your life when it comes to the process of listening.

And then you have individuals such as John Cage, who also promoted a bit of the philosophy of us trying to understand or reconsider what music is, and what is this thing we call music. So if you look up any of their teachings or interviews in which they get to express their ideas, I think those two individuals provide a foundational questions about sound and music,.

TR:
Anyone Interested in a career in sound design?

Estevan:
It should be acknowledged that AI is taking up a lot of the oxygen right now, which is a bit of a shame. But putting aside generative AI, there’s an industry of just creating sounds, creating samples, providing it to people. There are people out there who do field recording, who just go out to locations, record environments and share them or even sell them. And there’s individuals like me, and I think I’m hyper niche category where I’ve enjoyed the practice of just listening to recordings of places and things. So I think there’s a lot there when it comes to making sounds, crafting sounds for musicians, and even getting some music software, and then designing sounds in that music software, saving these presets, selling presets.

TR:
As we know all too well, AI is coming for every industry.
— Willhelm scream

Estevan
t’s definitely another conversation that I’ve spent some years discussing it, but I’m still trying to really muster up the energy to continue finding new words, yeah,

TR in Conversation with Estevan:
It sucks. There you go. There’s two words,

The two laught.

TR:
Big shout out to Estevan Carlos Benson. You can listen to some of his music and find out more about his projects at his website, EstevanCarlos.com.

Estevan:
spelled E, S, T, E, V, as in Victor, a, n, C, A, R, L, O, s.com.

TR in Conversation with Estevan:
People who take the time to come on to the podcast and they share their experiences, I gotta let you know…

— You’re Official

Music begins: A piano synth loop that leads to a strong kick and driving beat.
TR:
In 2014 I introduced you to this podcast | It’s a passion project, that means all love, no cash
Over 10 years bringing you nothing but facts | my goal for this has always been impact!
I invite a guest, take a topic tailor it just for you | a disability perspective always shining through
Thanks to my guest for sharing your time with me, You’re official | Reid My Mind Radio Family… RAH!

Official, uh uh official | Official, uh uh official !
Official, uh uh official | Official, uh uh official
You’re Official! | Reid My Mind Radio Family!

Official, uh uh official | Official, uh uh official !
Now whose official? | Official, uh uh official
Estevan carlos benson
You’re Official! Reid My Mind Radio Family!

For all y’all thinking, hmmm, what can I do| I wrote a checklist so you can become official too
Sample: “One” Chuck D!
You just can’t be down if you don’t follow or subscribe | That’s the number 1 way to join this tribe!
Sample: “Two” Chuck D!
Shout it out! Tell all your friends and your foes | That’s the way we help eachother and the podcast grows
Sample: “Three” Chuck D!
Buy merch, shirt or hoodie for yourself or yourboo | Now look at that, you’re official too! Woo!

Official, uh uh official | Official, uh uh official !
Now whose official? | Official, uh uh official
You’re Official! Reid My Mind Radio Family!

Official, uh uh official | Official, uh uh official
I said who’s official? | Official, uh uh official
(Applause)
You’re Official! | Reid My Mind Radio Family!

There it is!

Follow or subscribe wherever you get podcasts!
You know how we do, right?
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And so there’s never, ever, ever, ever any confusion
That’s R to the E I
Sample: D! And that’s me in the place to be! Slick Rick
Like my last name!
— Reid My Mind Radio Outro
Peace

Estevan”
I appreciate it. Yeah. I really do.
— Audio from Batman

Even though there are lots of sound libraries with pre recorded sounds for all sorts of situations, films with larger budgets continue to customize their sound design.

TR in Conversation with Estevan:
Again, the idea behind this episode is to help ad users really think more about audio and get more from a film.
So think about how we can interpret what’s taking place on screen, via the audio.
So I want to know about some of the basics that we should be listening for when we’re consuming visual content.

Like that creaking door. Something’s about to happen. Get out of there.

(The two laugh)

TR:
I know, who am I to talk about a creeking door. That was my actual door in the intro.
But the joke was right there.

Estevan:
So we’re asking, what is the sound designer doing that they hope the audience may listen for. And I think what’s interesting about that question is normally, the sound designer recognizes and acknowledges some of the detail they’re putting in there will not be heard at a conscious level.

Our brains or mind has to filter out a lot of information that we’re dealing with as we’re navigating spaces and experiences. So when we’re listening to anything, we’re not really able, nor necessarily should we be hearing every single thing all at once. So the sound designer has to work with that in mind they’re going to craft something, and the audience may sort of hear it consciously, but sort of won’t hear it.
So the audience can tell ourselves to listen to everything. I think one way to do that is to see if your mind can focus on the quiet sounds during moments that are loud.

TR:
We’re talking about active listening.

Estevan:
For example, you may have someone like shouting and yelling, but there may be quiet sounds in the background or in between that might tell you some of the story. That might be the subtlety that the director and sound designer are trying to express. I find in some scenes where there’s a lot of activity multiple people talking over each other and things like that, there can be subtle sounds in between here and there that are helping to express the scene, but easy to overlook because you’re trying to listen to the dialog. And then I think other sounds we sometimes may easily overlook that one can’t pay attention to, are the environmental sounds, the tones of a space, room tones and so forth, that can help give you context. And are not just there to tell you a place, but may also be there to represent a mood sometimes.

TR:
My home office used to be right off the kitchen on the main floor. I was very aware of any cars or trucks that drove into my driveway which was on the opposite side of the house.
This is active listening in my daily life.

Something I think I unknowingly trained myself to do because I want to knowif someone is entering my space. Eh yo, back up son!

I’m certain many of you in the family are more experienced active listeners.

TR in Conversation with Estevan:
I’m hoping that this is helpful, because there’s so much that we miss from a film that’s going on visually, and it would be nice, like, if there’s more to pick up from that, again, just beyond the AD.

Estevan:
That’s exactly it, that that’s what you’re describing. The car in the driveway sounds like it’d be a little bit subtle. You’re describing how your mind and our minds in general, can be attuned to certain things. So the issue isn’t so much that the car pulling into the driveway may be exceptionally loud. It may not be, but your mind is able to observe it, and then it is set up in so that upon. Observation, it becomes an important detail to you, and so you notice it.
For other folks, their mind is not a tune, and so they won’t notice it at all, And that is the interesting challenge of listening to a film, especially for the first time, there’s so much that you can miss, the mind becoming attuned to the details of first experience. I can’t imagine that being particularly easy at all.

TR:
Definitely not easy, it will take some real practice. Personally, I’ll start with a film that I’m already familiar with. Of course, not all films pay as much atttention to sound, but this exercise could probably be done with a lot of films.

The worst possible outcome, I revisit some familiar content again.
But the potential benefit could be additional access and perspective as well as another way to explore the world.

Estevan:
I don’t imagine the sound designer is having to put in a lot of nuance or detail into the sound design. But then some films they absolutely may be doing that. And so there actually may be a lot there to find and to listen for.

TR in Conversation with Estevan:
so what are some common examples of things that sound designers put in that can help interpret a story? There’s the obvious , that creepy music that comes on when something’s about to happen. What are some things that we could recognize?

Estevan:
Well, the first thing that came to mind right now, which is really, really silly, but you almost have to get it out of the way, is the trope, kind of the inside joke from sound designers, which is the Wilhelm scream that is put into probably hundreds of films at this point. I don’t know if you’ve heard of the Wilhelm scream?

TR:
You may not recognize the name, but I’m sure many of you heard it.

Estevan:
I believe there’s some 1950s film Western, and in this scene, some cowboy is shot off of his horse. He falls off and he screams. That scream has been resampled probably hundreds of times and used in so many films.

Estevan:
Every new film you see, especially if it’s an action film, you can attune your ears to hear it.

TR:
It’s not just westerns.

— Sound of door slowly opening
— Ominous scary music

Over the years the scream could be heard in all sorts of genres.
AD: A seven foot green creature with scalely skin with huge red eyes and a mouth filled with sharp fangs enters the Reid My Mind Radio studio.
The creature approaches Thomas bearing it’s fangs and raises it’s hands with nails as sharp and long as machetes.
TR:
… Sci fi, comedy…
(Fearfully)
Who is there?What do you want?
Oh my , no, no, no!
— Wilhelm Scream.

– Promo –
TR:
Reid My Mind Radio Family, onn August 27th at 2PM ET, one of our family members, Justice Shorter, is hosting Portraits & Portals – a powerful art showcase uplifting disabled artists of color and disabled disaster survivors of color.

(Filtered Voice) I’m one of the artists who was paired with a disaster survivor to help tell their story.

It takes place online on August 27 at 2 PM ET.
Hosted by The Partnership & Seeded Ground.
You can register at : https://tinyurl.com/portraitsportals.
Or, head on over to this episodes blog post at ReidMyMind.com and I’ll link you to the registration.

Back to the Episode
– End Promo –

Estevan:
For traditional horror structures, there’s emphasis of silence or quiet tones before climax.
It’s something we noticed where the person is walking down the dark hallway, and previously, where we heard loud environmental sounds, room tones. All of a sudden we no longer hear that. All of a sudden, we’re hearing maybe an exaggerated silence or a soft tone, and that’s how we anticipate that it’s trying to lead to something.

TR:
I’m okay everybody! (Giggles)
I just wanted to bring Estevan’s example to life.
The sound design plays a part in how we react. It’s what causes you to talk back to the screen.

Girl you better run, he’s right behind you. Run, run! Augh dang, get up.
I wonder if there’s a name for the inevitable fall when a woman is being chased on screen?

Estevan:
And then there are less obvious scenes where you could re watch something and be like, oh, wait a minute, maybe those sounds we heard just a moment ago were relating to this. I imagine that could happen in some films.

TR:
I remember watching a movie where a person was hit by a train. It wasn’t until that moment where I recalled hearing the train off in the distance at the beginning of the scene.
The subtle sound of the train was a foreshadowing of what was soon to come.

Estevan:
yeah, that’s a good example, and it’s reminding me of a film I saw.

They had some sound design that I would describe as very organic, meaning it didn’t clearly sound like some sort of synthesized sound. It also wasn’t really meant to represent a synthesized sound.
It sounded like objects moving in a space. Think of how wind chimes have kind of this smooth but kind of moving sound to it, like one chime followed by another.
I would say initially, you may or may not notice it to some extent as a part of the environment, but as the film continued, you would notice some emphasis on it during some moments, and you’d realize, oh, it’s that sound again, but in the scene, they were not visually showing what it is. It was meant to represent something, but I don’t necessarily know what the director’s intent was.
I think it was a good example of the director and sound designer communicating something which, in my opinion, I think that it was mostly communicating feeling.

I found myself super intrigued by, like, Oh, wow. What? What is that object, you know, yeah, you know, really, really interesting. Yeah,

TR in Conversation with Estevan:
Often in a film, there are these scenes they’re putting stuff in there and, they might represent something, or maybe they don’t, but they’re there for you to sort of take, right? And I don’t necessarily think about that with audio all the time. I feel like there’s another level of enjoyment, there’s another level of even just interest right in a film that you can gather audibly.

TR:
Imagine, you’re watching a film and the story isn’t really doing it for you, but the sound, now that sort of has it’s own thing going on.

Estevan:
Yeah, without a doubt.

The recent dune movies are for me okay. I’m fine with the story. I have a feeling the book is highly engaging.
I find the direction of the films to be effective. They’re lovely, but I’m honestly just so entranced by the score and sound design that I just really enjoy listening to it. And there are films where I will just buy it, because I really enjoy listening.

TR:
To be clear, Estevan is referring to both the music of the film or the sound track and the sound design.

Estevan:
You can buy the score for these films. You can’t buy the sound design, and I absolutely hate that. There are some films where the marriage between the two to me is so special, so beautiful, but you cannot gain access to the sound design. If I could listen to some films with zero dialog. There’s some films I only want to hear the sounds and the score. So sometimes I will struggle to ignore the dialog, but I’m really trying to hear the sound design and the score.

TR in Conversation with Estevan:
I wonder if there are any examples that we can maybe walk through to illustrate some of the sound design that goes on.

Estevan:
Sure, yeah.

Estevan:
So here we have Star Wars Episode Four from 1977 Walter Murch worked on this. He’s the one who was interviewed in conversations with Walter Murch.

This is when Vader comes in. A comment in YouTube says that Mark Hamill asked George whether or not this scene needed more exposition, this is supposedly hamills quote. Aren’t you going to cut to two characters saying, Who is that? That’s the Dark Lord of the Sith, because Hamill wasn’t sure that the audience would understand that this was a bad guy. And so this is a really interesting scene, because it’s the sound and the music that helps us understand that.

— Film clabboard “And Action”
— clip here…

TR:
George in this case is of course George Lucas, director of Star Wars.

George replied and I quote” Bruh, mind you’re business and watch this.”
Ok, maybe not a quote. But I bet he was thinking it.

Estevan:
George felt that yeah, just the sound in the visual would tell the audience enough of how to interpret it. What do you think you heard when Vader enters the screen? What are your thoughts?

TR in Conversation with Estevan:
I heard a laser type of sound thing going on there, even that breathing, Darth Vader’s breathing, it doesn’t sound like it’s friendly.
The footsteps I hear approaching
There was all that explosions going on, There was that gong sound, and then all those horns,
so something’s happened. And again, with the footsteps,
But then there was another tone that’s sort of underneath that where I’m feeling that, I was drawn to that.

Estevan:
That, tone underneath comes in when Vader is walking into the scene, and it’s a low rumble. And so films will often use, especially when in the theater use a low rumble for emphasis. In the beginning, we don’t feel a lot of low frequency rumble there, but as soon as Vader comes in, the lasers get quiet. We we have emphasis on his breathing, footsteps and a low rumble. And so that was helping to communicate a tone without the need for any additional dialog to tell you how to feel about it,

TR:
So just imagine instead of the low drone, the ominous footstepps, we replace all that with
— three stooges music
— squeaky

It’s a whole different vibe!

Estevan:
Yeah, yeah, absolutely. You wouldn’t necessarily know what to think.
You might even think like, oh, is Vader here to help, it could have been some other way to interpret it.

And I think that little rumble also really, really helps, because especially when you feel it physically, it just gets your attention.
So I think that’s a good classic scene. I believe Walter Murch was involved with that one. Okay, I can give you another example.

Here’s an interesting scene from punch drunk love, but I think it’s a little bit complicated. I enjoy it because it’s showing a bit of the range of how to work with musical score and sound. So in this scene, we’re going to hear an instrument called a harmonium, which is a type of organ instrument playing a melody. We’re going to hear a lot of environmental sounds, which is part of the sound design. And the sound design and the score become a little bit blurry at some point. Iin this scene, a man in a blue suit and a woman in red dress or leaving a restaurant and walking to a parking lot to go to their car at night.
Estevan” 58:46
A big 18 wheeler is driving by them and their breaks make a sound that follows the melody of the score that you hear. And I always found this to be a really fascinating type of decision, and it’s subtle, like, I don’t really think anyone watching this movie for the first time would have any reason to notice. I really enjoyed the score so that’s why I may have noticed it the first time.
I realized, oh the scene is communicating in this almost fantasy way that this 18 wheeler is making music due to the way it’s driving.

— Audio

Estevan”
It’s an interesting detail it’s like they made it sound like it’s in the background. It’s not a real instrument. They probably just sampled a truck, and then changed the pitches and played it on the keyboard.

TR in Conversation with Estevan:
Are there certain filmmakers that are known to do this more than others, or is it just sort of random that you notice this?

Estevan:
I don’t think there’s enough there doing it. I think the reason none of filmmakers may be doing it is either there’s budgetary constraints, time constraints, certain limits on that type of creative pursuit. The sort of filmmakers that have done it more consistently would be David Lynch who had the practice of doing that regularly in his films. And then I think often people working with Hans Zimmer. I don’t know if Hans Zimmer brings his own sound design team, but you hire Hans Zimmer for particular things, it’s going to be some sort of big project a lot of times. And so the sound design is often working with him.

The director of Blade Runner is the same directors is dune. Denis Villeneuve. I would say he also is often trying to merge sound design and score.

There’s other directors who’ve done it. They’re just doing it for one particular film and so it’s not obvious to me as to whether or not this is a theme in their work.

TR:
For those interested in learning more about sound design whether for access or just because Estevan has some suggestions.

Estevan”
There are other books about listening and about appreciating sound, which then connects to the topic of film or anything that deals with sound. I’m not going to recommend a book. But rather, I think if you look into any of the writings or teachings, including YouTube videos on individuals such as Pauline Oliveros, who promotes this idea that she calls deep listening. I think that helps a person understand a bit of the philosophy or way to listen. And I think that can inform any part of your life when it comes to the process of listening.

And then you have individuals such as John Cage, who also promoted a bit of the philosophy of us trying to understand or reconsider what music is, and what is this thing we call music. So if you look up any of their teachings or interviews in which they get to express their ideas, I think those two individuals provide a foundational questions about sound and music,.

TR in Conversation with Estevan:
What are some other careers for folks thinking about sound like, whether it be sound design, obviously musician composing, but are there other things that I might not be thinking of that sound design comes into play?

Estevan:
It should be acknowledged that AI is taking up a lot of the oxygen right now, which is a bit of a shame. But putting aside generative AI, there’s an industry of just creating sounds, creating samples, providing it to people. There are people out there who do field recording, who just go out to locations, record environments and share them or even sell them. And there’s individuals like me, and I think I’m hyper niche category where I’ve enjoyed the practice of just listening to recordings of places and things. So I think there’s a lot there when it comes to making sounds, crafting sounds for musicians, and even getting some music software, and then designing sounds in that music software, saving these presets, selling presets.

TR:
As we know all too well, AI is coming for every industry.
— Willhelm scream

Estevan
t’s definitely another conversation that I’ve spent some years discussing it, but I’m still trying to really muster up the energy to continue finding new words, yeah,

TR in Conversation with Estevan:
It sucks. There you go. There’s two words,

TR:
Big shout out to Estevan Carlos Benson. You can listen to some of his music and find out more about his projects at his website, EstevanCarlos.com.

Estevan:
spelled E, S, T, E, V, as in Victor, a, n, C, A, R, L, O, s.com.

TR in Conversation with Estevan:
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