Reid My Mind

TR:
Greetings family!
And welcome to any new comers. Y’all are family too now.

Stay tuned, I’ll have more about how to become official members of the Reid My Mind Radio family at the end of the episode.

Some of you do know, I have the ability to read minds. If you’re suspicious about that statement, well go back to the Blind Girl Magic episode and you’ll see for yourselves. Hmm! In fact, I can read so deep into your mind, I already know you’re not only gonna enjoy this episode, you’re going to want to let all your friends know.

Why not just go ahead right now and first, make sure you’re subscribed or following the podcast. Second, go ahead and hit that share button and say something like, “Hey friend, I’m listening to this podcast I just heard about recently. I thought it was about audio description, but it’s actually so much more than that.”

Now, send it to someone you love. I mean, if you really love them.

Filtered as if a thought) T, the love thing might be a bit too much.

I just think you’re really going to want to share the podcast. Fine, you’ll see.

— Reid My Mind Radio Theme Music

Nic:
Hey, I’m Nic Novicki. I’m a little person with a bit of a beard going on right now, and I’m wearing a black shirt. My pronouns are he, him his, and I’m a comedian, actor, writer, producer, and I’m the founder and director of the Easterseals disability film challenge,

TR:
If you’re not familiar with the Easterseals Disability Film Challenge (EDFC) you should be.

EDFC is a filmmaking competition that provides a platform that aims to increase representation of people with disabilities both in front of and behind the camera.

The challenge emphasizes authentic storytelling and provides mentorship and educational opportunities.

It’s an opportunity to showcase disabled talent in front and behind the camera and gain exposure in the entertainment industry.

Founder Nic Novicki, has been in over 50 television shows and movies Among them, HBO’s Boardwalk Empire.

— Scene from Boardwalk Empire with Nic and Steve Buscemi.

Nic:
The majority of my work has been self driven, with me writing and producing and creating my own content, because I’m three foot 10, and ultimately, nobody was creating the kind of stuff for me through the traditional system. I wasn’t getting the opportunities through regular auditions that I wanted. So I started doing it myself.

TR:
Nic reaped the rewards of doing that work and wants the same for others.

Nic:
I remember 12 years ago being like, why aren’t more people with disabilities creating their own work? Because it created all these opportunities for me, and I’ve always felt a common bond, not only to other little people, but to people with other disabilities, whether you’re blind, you’re deaf, you have an invisible disability or wheelchair user.

I just think there’s so much talent within our community. So that’s what made me create the disability film challenge.

TR:
What Nic initially thought would be a one time thing has turned into an annual event.

We can’t actually talk about the film challenge without learning more about Nic’s own career and experience. As you’ll see, they’re tied together.
TR in Conversation with Nic:
So let’s go back a little bit, because I’m interested in how you got started.
You’re a stand up comedian and actor. So what came first, acting or comedy?

Nic:
I really started doing a version of Stand Up Comedy when I was a little kid, because I used to raise money for Little People of America, and I would do these talks at Rotary Clubs. Now I was so small at that time. I’m still three foot 10, but when I was a kid, I was so small. So I go behind this podium, and there’d never be anything for me to stand on. So I’d always make a joke about it. I go, Hey, who forgot the stool? And everybody would start dying because I’m a little kid and I’m heckling the organizer.
I realized in that moment that, hey, now everybody’s listening when I’m talking.

They’re entertained, and now they’re listening to what I have to say.

TR:
Recognizing the power and the strength in who you are early in life is a gift.
As a young child Nic had aspirations of playing professional sports.

Nic:
Even though I’m a little person and was always so much smaller than everybody I played in all the local sports and then all of a sudden, when I went to junior high, everybody got way too big. Also I had more things related to my dwarfism, so I was having a hard time walking. So I decided to find theater, and I loved it. And so I was doing plays all through middle school and high school, and at that time, I thought I was just gonna do that for fun, because I got a scholarship to go to business school.
But then my first week of college, I found stand up comedy, and I never looked back.

TR:
Shout out to Temple University. (T U!)
I’m a proud Dad of a Temple grad!

Let’s hear more about that first experience with stand up comedy.

Nic:
As a little person, comedy is for me.

When people are going to say something about me, I’ll deflect, and I’ll do a joke. I always knew how to kind of use comedy to diffuse the situation and to sort of be like my turtle shell.

— Music begins A synth crescendos into a bouncy groove.

First week of college and I’m going on a date with a girl that was also a little person. And so we go to this comedy club, and we get sat in the front row. And I’ve never been to a comedy show. I’m just turned 19.

So we go in the front row, and every single comedian, this is the open mic night, like, look at that. It’s Willow and willows wife, and they’re just cracking on us every time. And she was upset by it, but I was just like laughing along. Whatever, it is what it is.

The host comes up and goes, if you want to come back next week, you could tell your side.

TR:
I have my own experience sitting in the front row of a comedy show. This was before blindness and fortunately, the comedian was nice to me. Some might say I have a don’t mess with me face.
But trust me, there’s no protection from comedians. Never sit in the front row!

Nic:
I know you got listeners from. All over the country and all over the world. The Northeast there’s a different energy in New York, New Haven, Philadelphia, Boston, people don’t just keep what they’re thinking in their head. They always say it out loud, hey, look, he’s little. Look at that man. How old are you? What’s up? Are you blind?

TR:
My first reaction, defend the east coast, but I just can’t yet. Let’s keep going.

Nic:
I think that there’s a good thing about openness, so I prefer to just let things be out in the open. That’s the way I’ve always been. I’m not going to let you upset me because you said something about me. I don’t care. I am little.
We don’t need to be weirded out or concerned about why I’m the way I am. I am the way I am, and it is the way I am.

TR:
I love that perspective. But at the same time, for my east coasters, we don’t always have to say what’s on our mind. At least, let it simmer in before you let it out of your mouth. To Nic’s point, there is value in the conversation.

Nic:
I think there’s a different energy sometimes when people are staring and they won’t say anything, rather than asking a question, and then moving on with where we’re at in the moment, socially or professionally, I think it’s important to be upfront and open.

I’ve always said let my comedy help elevate that so that again, now I’m breaking the ice with a joke, and now we’re moving on.

TR:
Let’s get back to Nic being invited to share his perspective on stage at the comedy club’s open mic.
Spoiler, he went back.

Nic:
I sign up, and I just tell everything from my point of view.
Growing up, being little, I can’t reach this.

It gave me something that was just addictive. It was the ability for me to tell my point of view of life, to talk about my experience, some of which was just me being a teenager, me having a hard time.
I had literally broke up with that girl in that week.
So not only was I just talking about my life as a little person,

I’m just complaining about things that were relatable to anybody.
I fell in love with it.

— Music ends

TR:
It’s not just about knowing what you like, it’s what moves you. And don’t under estimate the value in self awareness.

Nic:
I’m not necessarily the greatest comedian in the world or the greatest actor in the world, but I am good at meeting people and selling them about what I want to do, and an idea and a passion and why we should all work together. So really, at the end of the day, I’m kind of a connector. That’s what I am as a filmmaker, as a producer. I put people together. I don’t usually have access to the money or a lot of the other stuff, but what I think I am pretty good at is selling my passion for comedy and my passion for acting and it’s the same passion that’s there for the disability community.

TR:
The Easterseals Disability Film Challenge combines Nic’s passions for film, the disability community and self determination.

Nic:
You oftentimes in Hollywood, get put in a box whether you have a disability or whether you don’t, and I think when you do have a disability, when you’re a little person, you get put into that box for little people roles.

I wasn’t getting those media auditions to be the guy that gets the girl, or the boss, or the kind of great roles that up and coming actor would want to get. I think I was limited in those kind of auditions.

TR:
Meanwhile, Nic had options, including business school and opportunities to work on wall street.

Nic:
I did this because I love to do it. So for me, it was always about how can I do the kind of projects that I want to do.

I always grew up being a fan of The Godfather. I was like, Look, no one’s gonna write me into that role, so I need to write it for myself,

TR in Conversation with Nic:
So what was the first role that you wrote for yourself since you started doing that?

Nic:
I was writing a web series.
I did something called the urban Guardian…
— Audio from Urban Guardian

… and it was a guy who wasn’t a superhero. He didn’t really have any superpowers, but he just liked to wear this outfit to try to get girls.
It’s just me kind of running around, and I can’t really fix things, and I’m trying to date.

So I always kind of thought of ways to just write something so that I could be on a date or in a romantic situation or the gangster in roles that I wanted to play.

TR:
Fortunately, Nic was aware that a career in acting is uncertain. He began writing and producing his own material after landing what many would perceive as a major win.

— Scene from Nic in the Sopranos

Nic:
I booked a role on The Sopranos when I was pretty young. It wasn’t like a gangster. I was just a nightclub manager.

It was pretty amazing. But I was like, now I need to show myself on what it could look like to be a gangster.

TR:
Nic didn’t become a made man or the head of a crime family.
Of course, I’m talking about movie roles.
I don’t know what he does in his personal life.
What’s really important though, he found a blue print in his process for creating the film.

Nic:
I was able to put people together, a real, high quality camera person, a writer, and I just sold them in my vision. Hey, can you help me for this one day.

You need to figure out one day, one weekend, that you’re going to do something.
The camera person I need you on this one day, and the editor I need you for this very short period of time.
So that’s always been my philosophy.

TR:
An optimistic way of looking at the world and people in my humble opinion, is actually pretty important to getting things done.

Nic:
I think that people want to help.
I think overall, for the disability community, people that don’t have disabilities, I have always found want to help. They want to be there as an ally.

TR:
The next step in this grass roots or a guerilla style approach to production is a hard deadline.

Nic:
Figure out how to get people so that you’re only asking for them to work at a reduced rate, or in some cases, for free, for one day.
You’re over asking if you’re trying to get people to work lower than their normal rates for extended periods of times. It’s never going to happen.

TR:
Respecting people’s time means being upfront and realistic about your ask. It also means this is your project so you need to assure everything is accounted for.

Nic:
you need to get the equipment, maybe you need to get the location, you need to plan everything out,

And I think it’s very important for you to really show your appreciation for the people that help you with this project, that help you create this vision.

TR:
Of course the appreciation cam be shown with cash money, but there’s more.

Nic:
I can write a letter. I could send a nice email. I can call him and tell him how much I appreciate him, and I can also show other people how great that person is and recommend them for other jobs.

TR in Conversation with Nic:
So that is EDFC.

Nic:
Literally! I came up with the idea initially, 12 years ago, of the disability film challenge, based on what I was doing in my own career, shortened periods of time, putting people together, getting stuff done for pretty much, I gotta be honest, for oftentimes with zero budget.
talking to restaurants about trying to get free food.
If I was paying somebody, it was a very small kit fee. So everything that the original disability film challenge was based on things that I did in my own career.

TR:
The Disability Film Challenge was formed.

Nic:
the first disability film challenge 12 years ago. I thought was just going to be a one off competition. We had five films that were created that first year. And actually the films were only done in three days. Now we have five days where you make films.

And then the disability community is like, when’s the next one? I was like, Whoa, I guess I have to do another one. So then I did year or two, and then it kept growing. And then Peter Fairley came on board as a mentor that year too.

TR:
Peter Fairley is a filmmaker, director, screenwriter, producer, and novelist.
known for films including There’s Something About Mary, Dumb and Dumber, Shallow Hal, Kingpin, and several others.
He’s also been a long time supporter of disability rights.

Nic:
So word was spreading, and then it kept growing, and then I partnered with Easterseals in 2017 Easterseals is the nation’s largest Disability Services organization. So it’s now the Easterseals disability film challenge.
Now we have 850 films that have been created from around the world over these last 12 years.

TR:
Films from around the world which means representing a global perspective of disability.

Nic:
When you talk about the word disability, one in four Americans have a disability, and that’s self identifying as having a disability, but that also includes so many different kinds of disability, little people, wheelchair users, cerebral palsy, blind, deaf, invisible disabilities, autism, Down syndrome. veteran with PTSD. All these different disabilities. And they’re all making films and showcasing their disability.

TR:
To be clear, EDFC is about disability representation behind and in front of the camera. Disability as a topic is not required.

Nic:
I’m proud to be little. I’m proud to have a disability that’s always been the way I’ve been my whole life. But when it comes to making art, I don’t necessarily always want to talk about being a little person in my own projects, I like to just let that I am a little person be another layer to the film.
Now we don’t need to address it through making comments. the medium of film addresses it for us.

TR:
Of course, those of us who are Blind require access to that identifying information.

Nic:
generally speaking, the film challenge is really an opportunity where everybody makes their own films. And I’ve always encouraged since day one, make these films as accessible as you can. Everyone should be welcome.

Just being 100% honest, my community and my place within the disability world was other little people.
That was the disability community that I grew up with and that I knew. So I grew up with little people. I went to Little People conventions.
When I started the film challenge, I didn’t know as many other disabled people.

TR:
I don’t have any hard data, but I imagine this is quite common. When I became Blind, I didn’t seek out disability organizations, I specifically sought out others who were Blind.

I think that framing can make a persons perspective of accessibility pretty narrow.

That is until you’re exposed to those different from you.

Nic:
And I think year after year, we gotta figure out, we got somebody in a wheelchair, we can’t do a Q and A and this guy’s not able to go.

TR:
In addition to physical access, we know there are those requiring sensory access.

That includes captions and audio description.

Nic:
so frankly, because of the scale, the amount of films it was daunting.
we’re always in a place between budgets, between just scaling things we’re learning, we’re learning and trying to figure out how to get things done.

— Music begins an upbeat groove.

We had a discussion, me and you, and we talked about what could be done. And I remember saying, well, we have 123 films that are created and put online within a weekend. You’re like, Whoa.

I was like, Well, what if we were to create audio description for the finalist films, and even that in a very short time frame.

TR in Conversation with Nic:
yeah, which is fitting with the Disability Film Challenge. The AD film challenge! (Laughs)

Nic:
That’s right.

TR:
We’re talking 8 days to produce description for up to 16 films

For Social Audio Description Collective that means all hands on deck.
We’re going through as much as our production process as possible with the exception of communicating with the film creators.
The EDFC team selects the finalists including best film, best director, best editing etc., but they don’t announce that until the award ceremony. Therefore, SADC needs to have all the films described and returned to the EDFC team in time for the ceremony, where the finalist films are viewed, with open audio description.

Cool, but I’m not going to act as if Fifteen described films out of over 100 is a complete solution.
I will say it’s a significant start.

Nic:
I’m 42 years old. I was born before the Americans with Disabilities Act existed, to be honest, the ADA is here, but not necessarily always enforced. For me as a little person, when I go into the airports in LA, I can’t wash my hands in a lot of places. I can’t reach buttons and I do jokes about it, but we’re living in a world that is not always fully accessible for everybody.

Look, I think access is something that evolves.

TR:
True indeed. And while we wait on that evolution, personally, I’m for doing everything we can to spark that revolution.
Which by the way should be televised, shown in theaters, streamed online, acted out on stage all with equitable access!
Including captions, description, ASL and let’s not forget enhanced transcripts for our Deafblind family.

TR in Conversation with Nic:
You can’t do it all, but these parameters that you have, sometimes they help you get it done.

AD is a lot more intensive than captions, right?
And so to ask a filmmaker, especially a filmmaker who doesn’t know anything about audio description, to ask them to sort of create this within that five day period, that’s a lot.

This is sort of a beginning.
At least it’s bringing the attention of audio description to the rest of the community. And if we are going to have access,
— Music ends.
I think the community showing that we care about each other’s access is a big deal.

Nic:
I agree.

TR:
When we, the disability community, work together to assure our own access to our content, we model the concept of interdependence and mutual aid. We set the expectation for others. It’s what EDFC is doing for film making.

You can check out all of the audio described finalists films from both 2024 and 2025 Easterseals Disability Film Challenge on YouTube. I’ll link you there directly from this episode’s blog post at ReidMyMind.com.

Nic:
Now I’m wondering too, when, frankly, like, YouTube will make it so there’s the AD button, like a CC button, so that things can come on and off.

TR:
Right now, AD consumers, you have to find the AD version of the film which has been uploaded separately with open audio description.
Unlike the interface found on other streaming networks that let you simply select the AD track.
EDFC film makers need to check both versions of their film to figure out how many people actually watched the film.

Nic:
I think it’s up to some of these tech companies meta , YouTube, to step their game up.

TR in Conversation with Nic:
I’ve been told that they have it, but they’ve been rolling it out slowly and I don’t understand why.

they should give EDF C access to this, because that would make a lot of sense.

Nic:
I think that would be awesome.

TR:
The exposure these films receive is creating even more opportunities for many involved in front and behind the camera.
In fact, the industry, the community and individuals are all simultaneously benefiting.

Nic:
The Easterseals disability film challenge. Has been a huge resource for the casting Society of America, and the casting directors and the networks and studios have been finding film challenge films, and directly reaching out to people and auditioning them for roles that don’t have to do with their disability, specifically because of the challenge and the films that are all on YouTube.

TR:
And we know, representation matters!

Nic:
Generally, we’re one fourth the population, but we’re less than 2% of on screen representation.

A major study came out that said the vast majority of those are played by non disabled actors.

TR:
EDFC is having a direct impact on improving authentic representation.

Nic:
We have so many success stories that have come for people getting hired in front of the camera this year.

Amazon, MGM Studios said, Hey, we have a role for a movie. They didn’t tell us what movie it was, but we’re looking for actors on the autism spectrum. Do you have any actors? We were able to send them several dozen films, and they ended up casting Nic Sanchez, but everybody else got auditions.

Tr:
That project, the Accountant 2.

Nic:
Same thing happened on the TV show Loudermilk, which is very popular on Netflix. Peter Farrelly said, Hey, we’re looking for a little person actress. Do you know anybody? We were able to send several dozen little people actresses, they all auditioned. And Sophia Cheyenne, a little person, actor in New York who’s so talented and has been busting her butt for years doing theater, ended up in a multi year recurring role filming in Vancouver.

TR:
And those behind the camera?

Nic:
We’ve had editors on the autism spectrum that got hired on dozens of jobs and got to meet with mentors from HBO and HBO Max. We’ve had people get development meetings. We had a deaf director, Chrissy Marshall, and she just got accepted into the Sony diverse directing program, Sony Pictures Television, so she’s getting in front of people, and literally from the challenge and now spotlighted to possibly being able to direct TV. And through this amazing program, CBS has put people into casting initiatives, both as actors, but also learning how to be a casting director.

TR:
Shining a light on these films can lead to a wider distribution.

Nic:
Film festivals reach out to us and they say, Hey, we’re a festival here in the US, and we want to screen your film. We’re a festival in Europe. We’re a festival in India, we’ve gotten contacted by festivals in Russia, all over the world, they want to screen these films. And the coolest thing is, everybody owns their own film, so they have the ability to screen and submit these films and turn these films into larger projects.

TR:
EDFC is even helping with that.

Nic:
We have grants that have been awarded to film Challenge participants so they could further develop their projects.

We were able to give $25,000 grants out this year for film challenge films alumni from the past to be able to further develop their projects.

TR:
In addition to the exposure, the grants, participating in the film challenge adds to a persons demo reel, increases their network and provides real world experience.

And for any other film festivals listening, please take note, finalist also receive the access assets; i.e. caption and audio description files.
This is extremely helpful in general, but also for those festivals that require accessibility. Shout out to y’all!

Let’s be real, you don’t get the growth and results that EDFC has achieved over the past 12 years without Nic getting out there and promoting this event.

Nic:
I’m thinking about it at night. I’m waking up, I’m going to events. I always have a flyer on me, and that’s the way it started.

I hustled big time. I went to film festivals. I would put flyers up outside of places. Just with scotch tape outside of banks and restaurants and things where I didn’t have permission, I just put it out there.

(The two laugh.)

TR:
Nic made sure to let me know he had some help.

Nic:
I got to give my wife, who’s also a little person, teal, huge credit and shout out. She was there with me in the beginning for our first editing workshop that we had. We were making sandwiches.
I would promote
You can learn how to edit for free, and we got free sandwiches.

TR in Conversation with Nic:
So all of that was on your own dime, I’m assuming?

Nic:
Oh yeh. I was maxing out credit card(s).

We have a lot of amazing sponsors now.
Easterseales been amazing and really helped me escalate the challenge.
We have to be creative still because things get really expensive. We try to make everything for free and accessible.

We’re doing everything we can to try to push the community forward and push representation forward.
The film challenge is a community.
We get together at events. Oftentimes the event is supposed to end at this time, and we’re still all there. We get kicked out eventually.
It’s a beautiful community, and we just love being around each other and supporting each other. And even though the challenge has now gotten so competitive, I think people are so supportive of each other.

TR:
with all the effort Nic puts into the film challenge, he still finds time to continue working as a touring comedian.

Nic:
I’m lucky to still be working a lot as a comedian. I tour with Nate Bargatze.
I’m still working as an actor a lot, but I work on this challenge every single day of the week.
There’s another kind of feeling that I get in my stomach and in my heart when I know that other people are following their dreams through this. I never really would have thought it would have snowballed like that.
I’m just the luckiest guy in the world that one, I’ve been able to professionally be a comedian and an actor for over 20 years. People that I work with, people that I have professional relationships with will agree to come on and serve as a mentor for the challenge.
I feel very blessed.

TR:
With so much of the Easterseals Disability Film Challenge being based on Nic’s personal career and experience, what else can be learned from his hustle?

Nic:
It’s just baby steps. the same for my own career and stand-up. Doing fit for free, sleeping in Penn Station, going back and forth from Philly to New York, you know, and paying to do comedy, because it would cost more for me to get to a gig than I would make.

TR in Conversation with Nic
I do not endorse sleeping at Penn Station.

(The two laugh)

Nic:
It’s a gradual process. Don’t put too much pressure on yourselves of saying I’m only giving myself three months, and if I don’t make it, that’s it. No, no, no. You made it because you’re doing it.
You make your film and if there’s some sound issues or something else, don’t worry. You made something. You put it out there in the world. You can always do another color pass or something else. But I always tell people to make sure it gets out there. Because you’re never going to get discovered if you don’t put yourself out there.
The community, the world wants you. You belong, get yourself out there, build your team.

TR:
I know several of you are listening and want to make a film for next year’s challenge.

Nic:
Step 1, register and put it out there the same way I did for myself.
You always can use your own network to further yourself in your mission and put people together.

TR:
At the time of this recording, the dates for 2026 Easterseals Disability Film Challenge aren’t available just yet, but head on over to DisabilityFilmChallenge.com for more information and follow them on social media …

Nic:
@Disability film challenge
And also follow me. See me do comedy or projects I’m doing as an artist too, at Disability film challenge for the challenge, or at
Nic Novicki. N I C N O V I C K I.

I’ll be doing shows at the flappers comedy club. So if you’re in LA, send me a message, I may be able to get you a comp or a discounted ticket.
I’m in the TV show, bad thoughts that just dropped on Netflix, so you can see me in episodes four and five of that. I have some other projects I can’t talk about because I just signed an NDA, but I am gonna act in a project the small part, which I’m very excited about. And I’m gonna keep making my own stuff too. So I’m not just preaching it.

— Music begins: A piano synth loop that leads to a strong kick and driving beat.

TR:
Shout out to Nic Novicki, disabled film makers and those who are actively working to increase authentic representation.

And shout out to Social Audio Description Collective at SocialAudioDescription.com.

TR in conversation with Nic:
When folks come on the podcast and share their experience and knowledge with the family, they themselves become part of the family so you Nic Novicki…(echoes)

“You’re Official”

TR:
In 2014 I introduced you to this podcast | It’s a passion project, that means all love, no cash
Over 10 years bringing you nothing but facts | my goal for this has always been impact!
I invite a guest, take a topic tailor it just for you | a disability perspective always shining through
Thanks to my guest for sharing your time with me, You’re official | Reid My Mind Radio Family… RAH!

Official, uh uh official | Official, uh uh official !
Official, uh uh official | Official, uh uh official
You’re Official! | Reid My Mind Radio Family!

Official, uh uh official | Official, uh uh official !
Now whose official? | Official, uh uh official
Nic, Ni, Nic
Nic Novicki
You’re Official! Reid My Mind Radio Family!
Nic
I love it.

For all y’all thinking, hmmm, what can I do| I wrote a checklist so you can become official too
Sample: “One” Chuck D!
You just can’t be down if you don’t follow or subscribe | That’s the number 1 way to join this tribe!
Sample: “Two” Chuck D!
Shout it out! Tell all your friends and your foes | That’s the way we help eachother and the podcast grows
Sample: “Three” Chuck D!
Buy merch, shirt or hoodie for yourself or yourboo | Now look at that, you’re official too! Woo!

Official, uh uh official | Official, uh uh official !
Now whose official? | Official, uh uh official
You’re Official! Reid My Mind Radio Family!

Official, uh uh official | Official, uh uh official
I said who’s official? | Official, uh uh official
(Applause)
You’re Official! | Reid My Mind Radio Family!

There it is!

Follow or subscribe wherever you get podcasts!
You know how we do, right?
Transcripts and more are at ReidMyMind.com
And so there’s never, ever, ever, ever any confusion
That’s R to the E I
Sample: D! And that’s me in the place to be! Slick Rick
Like my last name!
— Reid My Mind Radio Outro
Peace

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Sample: “This is a journey into sound.” eric B and Rakim

TR:
— Sound of the Reid My Mind Radio studio door opening. (A bit of squeak going on with that door!)

Casually singing to himself… It’s time! Time to make a change, we are the people who can do it!

Where are my headphones…
(takes a deep breath)
What’s up family, welcome back to another episode of Reid My Mind Radio.
First time here? Let me tell you about a few things you need to know.

I’m Thomas Reid, host and producer of this here podcast.
Nice to meet you!

We’re in the midst of the Flipping the Script on Audio Description season. This is where we go beyond the mainstream audio description conversation to talk about how this art impacts the community. To some extent, today’s episode is a continuation from the last featuring Kemal Gorey.
In that episode, we saw how audio description was a tool for Kemal to compose the score for a silent film.
That got me thinking, hmm, do we as Blind consumers of visual content, listen to sound and music in a film in a way that helps us interpret that content?

Today’s episode may not feel like what you’ve come to expect from Flipping the Script, but I invite you to listen, carefully.

— Reid My Mind Theme Music

Estevan:
Hello. My name is Estevan Carlos Benson, and I live in Los Angeles, originally from Texas. I am an artist, educator, musician and composer. Right now I teach at USC Art Center, College of Design and Pasadena City College in the Southern California area. My pronouns are he, him and I am black and Mexican. Brown skin tone, beard, shaved headand about medium build wearing a brown shirt and glasses that I describe as very reminiscent of 1980s computer programmer.

TR:
Shout out to all my Black and brown brothers with bald heads and beards.
You know, every now and then I invite someone on with no personal relationship to disability.

Estevan:
The extent of my relationship is teaching subjects that deal with accessibility, something under the umbrella of user experience. It’s meant to be broad. Generally dealing with screen based experiences that could be web, but any sort of application. So it’s a little bit agnostic with the technology.

I’ve taught some classes where we’ll talk about music applications we may discuss;
how are people understanding the screen?
How do we handle things such as color blindness in order to communicate effectively. How do we deal with different aspects of vision, of legibility for the screen? And then, of course,
when it comes to the web, then we discuss the accessibility guidelines.

TR:
Today’s conversation is not about WCAG, but it is sort of related to the user experience.
AD users.

In addition to teaching, Estevan is a musician and composer.

Estevan:
Probably like most other musicians, I started off as a young person interested and intrigued by music.
I really enjoy those early years of being extremely curious.
I’m hearing music. I’m fascinated by what I hear. I took some fundamental kind of piano lessons as a preteen that held my attention to some extent.
Then eventually, I had a uncle who gave me access to a computer and early MIDI sequencer or notation software.
Just writing notation to play back generic piano sounds. As a teenager, got a synthesizer, and kind of went from there. So I’ve been making music since I was probably 16 or 17.

TR:
Estevan studied music as an undergrad and became quite passionate about the science of digital music. He continued making his own music and was encouraged to consider scoring for films.

Estevan:
So in 2020 I decided to get more involved that community. And so I’ve worked on small independent short films, documentaries, and then also got more involved with interactive music and composing for art installations.

TR:
Prior to 2020, music for film was part of Estevan’s music education.

Estevan:
I loved understanding the theoretical aspects of it and just the fundamentals. I remember reading a book from Walter Murch, who is possibly more known as an editor. He’s one of the editors of the early Star Wars films, but he’s also a sound designer. One of his books is called Conversations with Walter Murch. It’s fantastic. It was very inspiring. It was great to read someone discussing sound design in a very serious way and reflecting on how he approached it and here’s how we can all think about sound in our film.
That generally informed my approach later on.

TR:
The book, titledThe Conversations: Walter Murch and the Art of Editing Film
is available on Bookshare.org.

TR in Conversation with Estevan
Tr in Conversation with Estevan:
What exactly is sound design? How would you define that for folks?

Estevan:
You’re manipulating sound, carving and crafting sound to express or to represent. Sometimes the sound needs to be open to interpretation, and maybe a lot of interpretation. So it’s an expression, it can be mood. And then sometimes the sound is intended to represent something, it may lean towards more literal representation, similar to how there can be a tradition of visual communication between something that is abstract, open to a lot of interpretation, and then something that’s representational, that is intended to look like a thing.

TR:
So the same applies to sound.

An example of a more representational sound would be foot steps when someone is walking down a street.
While a melancholy musical score may express their mood.

Estevan:
I think when Walter Murch is talking in that book, he’s trying to help the reader understand that there is much more room for expression here than his peers or people in the past have taken seriously. Not to say that every film of the past only uses sound representationally to literally represent something, but when you have a medium that is less understood, it may be more difficult to be expressive in it.

TR:
We know society focuses much more on visuals in comparison to sound. It’s the difference between audio description and captions. We have more words to describe visuals than we do for sound. Turn on captions for your average television show or film and I can almost garuntee the sounds of the film including music will be minimally described if at all.

Like “music plays”. (Filtered voice)What’s that?

Estevan:
So I think that is one of the changes and shifts that we’ve had, I suspect, in film over these many decades of using sound in ways that can be expressive and not just hyper literal representation.

TR in Conversation with Estevan

Do sound designers, like other artists, specialize , like, a literal sound designer versus someone who’s more interpretive expressionist. Or do you have to have the ability to do both?

Estevan:
Under the umbrella of sound design, you may include someone known as the foley artist, or Foley sounds. So if you’re including that that person is leaning towards, not always, but leaning towards more representation of what is on the screen. So that does exist. But does someone have to really focus on one area or the other? Not necessarily, if you are a Foley artist or Foley person, then yes, you will be likely leaning towards representing information. But for most people who have the title of sound designer they really need to be able to move in any direction to kind of just fulfill the goals of the project.
TR:
you probably heard of Foley artists. They’re the folks who make all the sounds for the films. Literally, making the sounds.

Take your average fight scene in a movie. It’s probably going to consist of punches,
— Sample Sound of a punch.

kicks
— Sound of kicking.

and my favorite breaking tables, chairs and glass.
— Sounds of a wooden table and glass breaking.
It kind of reminds me of my latest bar fight.
It wasn’t my fault, I was just passing time and stepped into a bar for a drink. I was waiting for the bartender…

— Dream harp

Voice calls out: “Jimmy”

TR:
I tried taking a seat at the bar when all of a sudden.

— Sound of breaking glass.

TR in Bar: “Oh my bad. Please, let me buy you another drink.”

Guy in Bar:
“Look a here, we got a blind guy come knock down my beer and now says he gonna buy me another one.”

TR in Bar: “Hey man, I’m just trying to be polite. I’m not looking for any trouble.”
Guy in Bar: Ya heard that Billy Bob, blind boy says he ain’t LOOKING for trouble. Show him what we do around these parts”

— Sound of something moving through the air.

TR in Bar: Sounds like nun chucks. Seriously, I’m Blind, you’re not impressing me.
Hey man, please don’t put your hands on me. You don’t want to make me angry.
Guy in Bar: Ya heard that Billy Bob, we don’t want to make Ray Charles here angry.”

TR in Bar: Ok, this is what we’re doing today?

— Punches,kicks and glass breaking begin.
Pow! Zap! Splatt!

TR in Bar: Hey, if anyone sees the bartender, please order me a vodka cranberry while I handle these fools.

Splatt! Zap! Pow!
— Reverse dream harp.
TR:
Ok, , I don’t endorse violence in any form.
Well, some of my fondest memories involve violence.

— Audio from a fight scene in the original Batman television series with lots of Pow! Zaps! Splatt!

TR:
Today there are lots of sound libraries with pre recorded sounds for all sorts of situations,
films with larger budgets continue to customize their sound design.

— “Ah, you caught us Batman, but your crime fighting days are over.” From Batman

TR in Conversation with Estevan:
I want to know about some of the basics that we should be listening for when we’re consuming visual content.

Like that creaking door. Something’s about to happen. Get out of there.

(The two laugh)

TR:
I know, who am I to talk about a creeking door. That was my actual door in the intro.
But the joke was right there.

Estevan:
So we’re asking, what is the sound designer doing that they hope the audience may listen for. And I think what’s interesting about that question is normally, the sound designer recognizes and acknowledges some of the detail they’re putting in there will not be heard at a conscious level.

Our brains or mind has to filter out a lot of information that we’re dealing with as we’re navigating spaces and experiences. So when we’re listening to anything, we’re not really able, nor necessarily should we be hearing every single thing all at once. So the sound designer has to work with that in mind they’re going to craft something, and the audience may sort of hear it consciously, but sort of won’t hear it.
So the audience can tell ourselves to listen to everything. I think one way to do that is to see if your mind can focus on the quiet sounds during moments that are loud.

TR:
We’re talking about active listening.

Estevan:
For example, you may have someone like shouting and yelling, but there may be quiet sounds in the background or in between that might tell you some of the story. That might be the subtlety that the director and sound designer are trying to express. I find in some scenes where there’s a lot of activity multiple people talking over each other and things like that, there can be subtle sounds in between here and there that are helping to express the scene, but easy to overlook because you’re trying to listen to the dialog. And then I think other sounds we sometimes may easily overlook that one can’t pay attention to, are the environmental sounds, the tones of a space, room tones and so forth, that can help give you context. And are not just there to tell you a place, but may also be there to represent a mood sometimes.

TR:
My home office used to be right off the kitchen on the main floor. I was very aware of any cars or trucks that drove into my driveway which was on the opposite side of the house.
This is active listening in my daily life.

Something I think I unknowingly trained myself to do because I want to knowif someone is entering my space. Eh yo, back up son!

Estevan:
You’re describing how your mind and our minds in general, can be attuned to certain things. So the issue isn’t so much that the car pulling into the driveway may be exceptionally loud. It may not be, but your mind is able to observe it, and then it is set up in so that upon. Observation, it becomes an important detail to you, and so you notice it.
For other folks, their mind is not a tune, and so they won’t notice it at all, And that is the interesting challenge of listening to a film, especially for the first time, there’s so much that you can miss, the mind becoming attuned to the details of first experience. I can’t imagine that being particularly easy at all.

TR:
Definitely not easy, it will take some real practice. Personally, I’ll start with a film that I’m already familiar with. Of course, not all films pay as much atttention to sound, but this exercise could probably be done with a lot of films.

The worst possible outcome, I revisit some familiar content again.
But the potential benefit could be additional access and perspective as well as another way to explore the world.

Estevan:
I don’t imagine the sound designer is having to put in a lot of nuance or detail into the sound design. But then some films they absolutely may be doing that. And so there actually may be a lot there to find and to listen for.

TR in Conversation with Estevan:
so what are some common examples of things that sound designers put in that can help interpret a story? There’s the obvious , that creepy music that comes on when something’s about to happen. What are some things that we could recognize?

Estevan:
Well, the first thing that came to mind right now, which is really, really silly, but you almost have to get it out of the way, is the trope, kind of the inside joke from sound designers, which is the Wilhelm scream that is put into probably hundreds of films at this point. I don’t know if you’ve heard of the Wilhelm scream?

TR:
You may not recognize the name, but I’m sure many of you heard it.

Estevan:
I believe there’s some 1950s film Western, and in this scene, some cowboy is shot off of his horse. He falls off and he screams.

— Wihlelm Scream

That scream has been resampled probably hundreds of times and used in so many films.

TR:
It’s not just westerns.

— Transition
— Sound of door slowly opening
— Ominous scary ambience
— Slow footsteps

TR:
Over the years the scream could be heard in all sorts of genres.

AD: A seven foot green creature with scalely skin with huge red eyes and a mouth filled with sharp fangs enters the Reid My Mind Radio studio.
The creature approaches Thomas bearing it’s fangs and raises it’s hands with nails as sharp and long as machetes.

— Monster grunt

TR:
… Sci fi, comedy…
(Fearfully)
Who is there?What do you want?
Oh my , no, no, no!

— Monster roar
— Slashing sound
— Wilhelm Scream.
— Sound of ripping, crunching and tearing apart.

— Transition

Estevan:
For traditional horror structures, there’s emphasis of silence or quiet tones before climax.
It’s something we noticed where the person is walking down the dark hallway, and previously, where we heard loud environmental sounds, room tones. All of a sudden we no longer hear that. All of a sudden, we’re hearing maybe an exaggerated silence or a soft tone, and that’s how we anticipate that it’s trying to lead to something.

TR:
Good news everybody, I’m okay!

The sound design plays a part in how we react. It’s what causes you to talk back to the screen.

Girl you better run, he’s right behind you. Run, run! Augh dang!

Estevan:
And then there are less obvious scenes where you could re watch something and be like, oh, wait a minute, maybe those sounds we heard just a moment ago were relating to this. I imagine that could happen in some films.

TR:
I remember watching a movie where a person was hit by a train.
It wasn’t until that moment where I recalled hearing the train off in the distance at the beginning of the scene.
The subtle sound of the train was a foreshadowing of what was soon to come.

Estevan:
yeah, that’s a good example, and it’s reminding me of a film I saw. They had some sound design that I would describe as very organic, meaning it didn’t clearly sound like some sort of synthesized sound. It also wasn’t really meant to represent a synthesized sound. It sounded like objects moving in a space. Think of how wind chimes have kind of this smooth but kind of moving sound to it, like one chime followed by another.
I would say initially, you may or may not notice it to some extent as a part of the environment, but as the film continued, you would notice some emphasis on it during some moments, and you’d realize, oh, it’s that sound again, but in the scene, they were not visually showing what it is. It was meant to represent something, but I don’t necessarily know what the director’s intent was.

I think it was a good example of the director and sound designer communicating something which, in my opinion, I think that it was mostly communicating feeling. I found myself super intrigued by, like, Oh, wow. What? What is that object, you know, yeah, you know, really, really interesting. Yeah,

TR in Conversation with Estevan:
Often in a film, there are these scenes they’re putting stuff in there and, they might represent something, or maybe they don’t, but they’re there for you to sort of take, right? And I don’t necessarily think about that with audio all the time. I feel like there’s another level of enjoyment, there’s another level of even just interest right in a film that you can gather audibly.

TR:
Imagine, you’re watching a film and the story isn’t really doing it for you, but the sound, now that sort of has it’s own thing going on.

Estevan:
Yeah, without a doubt.

That’s pretty much how the recent Dune movies are for me. I’m fine with the story. I have a feeling the book is highly engaging. I find the direction of the films to be effective. They’re lovely, but I’m honestly just so entranced by the score and sound design that I just really enjoy listening to it. And there are films where I will just buy it, because I really enjoy listening.

TR:
To be clear, Estevan is referring to both the music of the film or the sound track and the sound design.

Estevan:
You can buy the score for these films. You can’t buy the sound design, and I absolutely hate that. There are some films where the marriage between the two to me is so special, so beautiful, but you cannot gain access to the sound design. If I could listen to some films with zero dialog. There’s some films I only want to hear the sounds and the score. So sometimes I will struggle to ignore the dialog, but I’m really trying to hear the sound design and the score.

TR in Conversation with Estevan:
I wonder if there are any examples that we can maybe walk through to illustrate some of the sound design that goes on.

Estevan:
Sure, yeah. So here we have Star Wars Episode Four from 1977 Walter Murch worked on this. He’s the one who was interviewed in conversations with Walter Murch.

This is when Vader comes in. A comment in YouTube says that Mark Hamill asked George whether or not this scene needed more exposition, this is supposedly hamills quote. Aren’t you going to cut to two characters saying, Who is that? That’s the Dark Lord of the Sith, because Hamill wasn’t sure that the audience would understand that this was a bad guy. And so this is a really interesting scene, because it’s the sound and the music that helps us understand that.

— Beep! “Take 1″ Film clabboard!
— clip here…

TR:
George in this case is of course George Lucas, director of Star Wars.

George replied and I quote” Bruh, mind you’re business and watch this.”
Ok, maybe not a quote. But I bet he was thinking it.

Estevan:
George felt that yeah, just the sound in the visual would tell the audience enough of how to interpret it. What do you think you heard when Vader enters the screen? What are your thoughts?

TR in Conversation with Estevan:
I heard a laser type of sound thing going on there, even that breathing, Darth Vader’s breathing, it doesn’t sound like it’s friendly.
The footsteps I hear approaching
There was all that explosions going on, There was that gong sound, and then all those horns,
so something’s happened. And again, with the footsteps,
But then there was another tone that’s sort of underneath that where I’m feeling that, I was drawn to that.

Estevan:
That, tone underneath comes in when Vader is walking into the scene, and it’s a low rumble. And so films will often use, especially when in the theater use a low rumble for emphasis. In the beginning, we don’t feel a lot of low frequency rumble there, but as soon as Vader comes in, the lasers get quiet. We we have emphasis on his breathing, footsteps and a low rumble. And so that was helping to communicate a tone without the need for any additional dialog to tell you how to feel about it,

TR:
So instead of that ominous music we replace it with this:
— Cartoon music

And we change Darth Vaders footsteps to this…
— A child stepping in bouncy, squeaky slippers.
TR:
Laughs! I’m having way too much fun.

Estevan:
Here’s an interesting scene from Punch Drunk Love, but I think it’s a little bit complicated. I enjoy it because it’s showing a bit of the range of how to work with musical score and sound. So in this scene, we’re going to hear an instrument called a harmonium, which is a type of organ instrument playing a melody. We’re going to hear a lot of environmental sounds, which is part of the sound design. And the sound design and the score become a little bit blurry at some point. Iin this scene, a man in a blue suit and a woman in red dress or leaving a restaurant and walking to a parking lot to go to their car at night.
A big 18 wheeler is driving by them and their breaks make a sound that follows the melody of the score that you hear. And I always found this to be a really fascinating type of decision, and it’s subtle, like, I don’t really think anyone watching this movie for the first time would have any reason to notice. I really enjoyed the score so that’s why I may have noticed it the first time.
I realized, oh the scene is communicating in this almost fantasy way that this 18 wheeler is making music due to the way it’s driving.

— Beep! “Take 2″ Film clabboard!
— Scene from Punch Drunk Love

Estevan”
It’s an interesting detail it’s like they made it sound like it’s in the background. It’s not a real instrument. They probably just sampled a truck, and then changed the pitches and played it on the keyboard.

TR in Conversation with Estevan:
Are there certain filmmakers that are known to do this more than others, or is it just sort of random that you notice this?

Estevan:
I don’t think there’s enough there doing it. I think the reason none of filmmakers may be doing it is either there’s budgetary constraints, time constraints, certain limits on that type of creative pursuit. The sort of filmmakers that have done it more consistently would be David Lynch who had the practice of doing that regularly in his films. And then I think often people working with Hans Zimmer. I don’t know if Hans Zimmer brings his own sound design team, but you hire Hans Zimmer for particular things, it’s going to be some sort of big project a lot of times. And so the sound design is often working with him.

The director of Blade Runner is the same directors is dune. Denis Villeneuve. I would say he also is often trying to merge sound design and score.

There’s other directors who’ve done it. They’re just doing it for one particular film and so it’s not obvious to me as to whether or not this is a theme in their work.

TR:
For those interested in learning more about sound design whether for access or just because, Estevan has some suggestions.

Estevan”
There are other books about listening and about appreciating sound, which then connects to the topic of film or anything that deals with sound. I’m not going to recommend a book. But rather, I think if you look into any of the writings or teachings, including YouTube videos on individuals such as Pauline Oliveros, who promotes this idea that she calls deep listening. I think that helps a person understand a bit of the philosophy or way to listen. And I think that can inform any part of your life when it comes to the process of listening.

And then you have individuals such as John Cage, who also promoted a bit of the philosophy of us trying to understand or reconsider what music is, and what is this thing we call music. So if you look up any of their teachings or interviews in which they get to express their ideas, I think those two individuals provide a foundational questions about sound and music,.

TR:
Anyone Interested in a career in sound design?

Estevan:
It should be acknowledged that AI is taking up a lot of the oxygen right now, which is a bit of a shame. But putting aside generative AI, there’s an industry of just creating sounds, creating samples, providing it to people. There are people out there who do field recording, who just go out to locations, record environments and share them or even sell them. And there’s individuals like me, and I think I’m hyper niche category where I’ve enjoyed the practice of just listening to recordings of places and things. So I think there’s a lot there when it comes to making sounds, crafting sounds for musicians, and even getting some music software, and then designing sounds in that music software, saving these presets, selling presets.

TR:
As we know all too well, AI is coming for every industry.
— Willhelm scream

Estevan
t’s definitely another conversation that I’ve spent some years discussing it, but I’m still trying to really muster up the energy to continue finding new words, yeah,

TR in Conversation with Estevan:
It sucks. There you go. There’s two words,

The two laught.

TR:
Big shout out to Estevan Carlos Benson. You can listen to some of his music and find out more about his projects at his website, EstevanCarlos.com.

Estevan:
spelled E, S, T, E, V, as in Victor, a, n, C, A, R, L, O, s.com.

TR in Conversation with Estevan:
People who take the time to come on to the podcast and they share their experiences, I gotta let you know…

— You’re Official

Music begins: A piano synth loop that leads to a strong kick and driving beat.
TR:
In 2014 I introduced you to this podcast | It’s a passion project, that means all love, no cash
Over 10 years bringing you nothing but facts | my goal for this has always been impact!
I invite a guest, take a topic tailor it just for you | a disability perspective always shining through
Thanks to my guest for sharing your time with me, You’re official | Reid My Mind Radio Family… RAH!

Official, uh uh official | Official, uh uh official !
Official, uh uh official | Official, uh uh official
You’re Official! | Reid My Mind Radio Family!

Official, uh uh official | Official, uh uh official !
Now whose official? | Official, uh uh official
Estevan carlos benson
You’re Official! Reid My Mind Radio Family!

For all y’all thinking, hmmm, what can I do| I wrote a checklist so you can become official too
Sample: “One” Chuck D!
You just can’t be down if you don’t follow or subscribe | That’s the number 1 way to join this tribe!
Sample: “Two” Chuck D!
Shout it out! Tell all your friends and your foes | That’s the way we help eachother and the podcast grows
Sample: “Three” Chuck D!
Buy merch, shirt or hoodie for yourself or yourboo | Now look at that, you’re official too! Woo!

Official, uh uh official | Official, uh uh official !
Now whose official? | Official, uh uh official
You’re Official! Reid My Mind Radio Family!

Official, uh uh official | Official, uh uh official
I said who’s official? | Official, uh uh official
(Applause)
You’re Official! | Reid My Mind Radio Family!

There it is!

Follow or subscribe wherever you get podcasts!
You know how we do, right?
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And so there’s never, ever, ever, ever any confusion
That’s R to the E I
Sample: D! And that’s me in the place to be! Slick Rick
Like my last name!
— Reid My Mind Radio Outro
Peace

Estevan”
I appreciate it. Yeah. I really do.
— Audio from Batman

Even though there are lots of sound libraries with pre recorded sounds for all sorts of situations, films with larger budgets continue to customize their sound design.

TR in Conversation with Estevan:
Again, the idea behind this episode is to help ad users really think more about audio and get more from a film.
So think about how we can interpret what’s taking place on screen, via the audio.
So I want to know about some of the basics that we should be listening for when we’re consuming visual content.

Like that creaking door. Something’s about to happen. Get out of there.

(The two laugh)

TR:
I know, who am I to talk about a creeking door. That was my actual door in the intro.
But the joke was right there.

Estevan:
So we’re asking, what is the sound designer doing that they hope the audience may listen for. And I think what’s interesting about that question is normally, the sound designer recognizes and acknowledges some of the detail they’re putting in there will not be heard at a conscious level.

Our brains or mind has to filter out a lot of information that we’re dealing with as we’re navigating spaces and experiences. So when we’re listening to anything, we’re not really able, nor necessarily should we be hearing every single thing all at once. So the sound designer has to work with that in mind they’re going to craft something, and the audience may sort of hear it consciously, but sort of won’t hear it.
So the audience can tell ourselves to listen to everything. I think one way to do that is to see if your mind can focus on the quiet sounds during moments that are loud.

TR:
We’re talking about active listening.

Estevan:
For example, you may have someone like shouting and yelling, but there may be quiet sounds in the background or in between that might tell you some of the story. That might be the subtlety that the director and sound designer are trying to express. I find in some scenes where there’s a lot of activity multiple people talking over each other and things like that, there can be subtle sounds in between here and there that are helping to express the scene, but easy to overlook because you’re trying to listen to the dialog. And then I think other sounds we sometimes may easily overlook that one can’t pay attention to, are the environmental sounds, the tones of a space, room tones and so forth, that can help give you context. And are not just there to tell you a place, but may also be there to represent a mood sometimes.

TR:
My home office used to be right off the kitchen on the main floor. I was very aware of any cars or trucks that drove into my driveway which was on the opposite side of the house.
This is active listening in my daily life.

Something I think I unknowingly trained myself to do because I want to knowif someone is entering my space. Eh yo, back up son!

I’m certain many of you in the family are more experienced active listeners.

TR in Conversation with Estevan:
I’m hoping that this is helpful, because there’s so much that we miss from a film that’s going on visually, and it would be nice, like, if there’s more to pick up from that, again, just beyond the AD.

Estevan:
That’s exactly it, that that’s what you’re describing. The car in the driveway sounds like it’d be a little bit subtle. You’re describing how your mind and our minds in general, can be attuned to certain things. So the issue isn’t so much that the car pulling into the driveway may be exceptionally loud. It may not be, but your mind is able to observe it, and then it is set up in so that upon. Observation, it becomes an important detail to you, and so you notice it.
For other folks, their mind is not a tune, and so they won’t notice it at all, And that is the interesting challenge of listening to a film, especially for the first time, there’s so much that you can miss, the mind becoming attuned to the details of first experience. I can’t imagine that being particularly easy at all.

TR:
Definitely not easy, it will take some real practice. Personally, I’ll start with a film that I’m already familiar with. Of course, not all films pay as much atttention to sound, but this exercise could probably be done with a lot of films.

The worst possible outcome, I revisit some familiar content again.
But the potential benefit could be additional access and perspective as well as another way to explore the world.

Estevan:
I don’t imagine the sound designer is having to put in a lot of nuance or detail into the sound design. But then some films they absolutely may be doing that. And so there actually may be a lot there to find and to listen for.

TR in Conversation with Estevan:
so what are some common examples of things that sound designers put in that can help interpret a story? There’s the obvious , that creepy music that comes on when something’s about to happen. What are some things that we could recognize?

Estevan:
Well, the first thing that came to mind right now, which is really, really silly, but you almost have to get it out of the way, is the trope, kind of the inside joke from sound designers, which is the Wilhelm scream that is put into probably hundreds of films at this point. I don’t know if you’ve heard of the Wilhelm scream?

TR:
You may not recognize the name, but I’m sure many of you heard it.

Estevan:
I believe there’s some 1950s film Western, and in this scene, some cowboy is shot off of his horse. He falls off and he screams. That scream has been resampled probably hundreds of times and used in so many films.

Estevan:
Every new film you see, especially if it’s an action film, you can attune your ears to hear it.

TR:
It’s not just westerns.

— Sound of door slowly opening
— Ominous scary music

Over the years the scream could be heard in all sorts of genres.
AD: A seven foot green creature with scalely skin with huge red eyes and a mouth filled with sharp fangs enters the Reid My Mind Radio studio.
The creature approaches Thomas bearing it’s fangs and raises it’s hands with nails as sharp and long as machetes.
TR:
… Sci fi, comedy…
(Fearfully)
Who is there?What do you want?
Oh my , no, no, no!
— Wilhelm Scream.

– Promo –
TR:
Reid My Mind Radio Family, onn August 27th at 2PM ET, one of our family members, Justice Shorter, is hosting Portraits & Portals – a powerful art showcase uplifting disabled artists of color and disabled disaster survivors of color.

(Filtered Voice) I’m one of the artists who was paired with a disaster survivor to help tell their story.

It takes place online on August 27 at 2 PM ET.
Hosted by The Partnership & Seeded Ground.
You can register at : https://tinyurl.com/portraitsportals.
Or, head on over to this episodes blog post at ReidMyMind.com and I’ll link you to the registration.

Back to the Episode
– End Promo –

Estevan:
For traditional horror structures, there’s emphasis of silence or quiet tones before climax.
It’s something we noticed where the person is walking down the dark hallway, and previously, where we heard loud environmental sounds, room tones. All of a sudden we no longer hear that. All of a sudden, we’re hearing maybe an exaggerated silence or a soft tone, and that’s how we anticipate that it’s trying to lead to something.

TR:
I’m okay everybody! (Giggles)
I just wanted to bring Estevan’s example to life.
The sound design plays a part in how we react. It’s what causes you to talk back to the screen.

Girl you better run, he’s right behind you. Run, run! Augh dang, get up.
I wonder if there’s a name for the inevitable fall when a woman is being chased on screen?

Estevan:
And then there are less obvious scenes where you could re watch something and be like, oh, wait a minute, maybe those sounds we heard just a moment ago were relating to this. I imagine that could happen in some films.

TR:
I remember watching a movie where a person was hit by a train. It wasn’t until that moment where I recalled hearing the train off in the distance at the beginning of the scene.
The subtle sound of the train was a foreshadowing of what was soon to come.

Estevan:
yeah, that’s a good example, and it’s reminding me of a film I saw.

They had some sound design that I would describe as very organic, meaning it didn’t clearly sound like some sort of synthesized sound. It also wasn’t really meant to represent a synthesized sound.
It sounded like objects moving in a space. Think of how wind chimes have kind of this smooth but kind of moving sound to it, like one chime followed by another.
I would say initially, you may or may not notice it to some extent as a part of the environment, but as the film continued, you would notice some emphasis on it during some moments, and you’d realize, oh, it’s that sound again, but in the scene, they were not visually showing what it is. It was meant to represent something, but I don’t necessarily know what the director’s intent was.
I think it was a good example of the director and sound designer communicating something which, in my opinion, I think that it was mostly communicating feeling.

I found myself super intrigued by, like, Oh, wow. What? What is that object, you know, yeah, you know, really, really interesting. Yeah,

TR in Conversation with Estevan:
Often in a film, there are these scenes they’re putting stuff in there and, they might represent something, or maybe they don’t, but they’re there for you to sort of take, right? And I don’t necessarily think about that with audio all the time. I feel like there’s another level of enjoyment, there’s another level of even just interest right in a film that you can gather audibly.

TR:
Imagine, you’re watching a film and the story isn’t really doing it for you, but the sound, now that sort of has it’s own thing going on.

Estevan:
Yeah, without a doubt.

The recent dune movies are for me okay. I’m fine with the story. I have a feeling the book is highly engaging.
I find the direction of the films to be effective. They’re lovely, but I’m honestly just so entranced by the score and sound design that I just really enjoy listening to it. And there are films where I will just buy it, because I really enjoy listening.

TR:
To be clear, Estevan is referring to both the music of the film or the sound track and the sound design.

Estevan:
You can buy the score for these films. You can’t buy the sound design, and I absolutely hate that. There are some films where the marriage between the two to me is so special, so beautiful, but you cannot gain access to the sound design. If I could listen to some films with zero dialog. There’s some films I only want to hear the sounds and the score. So sometimes I will struggle to ignore the dialog, but I’m really trying to hear the sound design and the score.

TR in Conversation with Estevan:
I wonder if there are any examples that we can maybe walk through to illustrate some of the sound design that goes on.

Estevan:
Sure, yeah.

Estevan:
So here we have Star Wars Episode Four from 1977 Walter Murch worked on this. He’s the one who was interviewed in conversations with Walter Murch.

This is when Vader comes in. A comment in YouTube says that Mark Hamill asked George whether or not this scene needed more exposition, this is supposedly hamills quote. Aren’t you going to cut to two characters saying, Who is that? That’s the Dark Lord of the Sith, because Hamill wasn’t sure that the audience would understand that this was a bad guy. And so this is a really interesting scene, because it’s the sound and the music that helps us understand that.

— Film clabboard “And Action”
— clip here…

TR:
George in this case is of course George Lucas, director of Star Wars.

George replied and I quote” Bruh, mind you’re business and watch this.”
Ok, maybe not a quote. But I bet he was thinking it.

Estevan:
George felt that yeah, just the sound in the visual would tell the audience enough of how to interpret it. What do you think you heard when Vader enters the screen? What are your thoughts?

TR in Conversation with Estevan:
I heard a laser type of sound thing going on there, even that breathing, Darth Vader’s breathing, it doesn’t sound like it’s friendly.
The footsteps I hear approaching
There was all that explosions going on, There was that gong sound, and then all those horns,
so something’s happened. And again, with the footsteps,
But then there was another tone that’s sort of underneath that where I’m feeling that, I was drawn to that.

Estevan:
That, tone underneath comes in when Vader is walking into the scene, and it’s a low rumble. And so films will often use, especially when in the theater use a low rumble for emphasis. In the beginning, we don’t feel a lot of low frequency rumble there, but as soon as Vader comes in, the lasers get quiet. We we have emphasis on his breathing, footsteps and a low rumble. And so that was helping to communicate a tone without the need for any additional dialog to tell you how to feel about it,

TR:
So just imagine instead of the low drone, the ominous footstepps, we replace all that with
— three stooges music
— squeaky

It’s a whole different vibe!

Estevan:
Yeah, yeah, absolutely. You wouldn’t necessarily know what to think.
You might even think like, oh, is Vader here to help, it could have been some other way to interpret it.

And I think that little rumble also really, really helps, because especially when you feel it physically, it just gets your attention.
So I think that’s a good classic scene. I believe Walter Murch was involved with that one. Okay, I can give you another example.

Here’s an interesting scene from punch drunk love, but I think it’s a little bit complicated. I enjoy it because it’s showing a bit of the range of how to work with musical score and sound. So in this scene, we’re going to hear an instrument called a harmonium, which is a type of organ instrument playing a melody. We’re going to hear a lot of environmental sounds, which is part of the sound design. And the sound design and the score become a little bit blurry at some point. Iin this scene, a man in a blue suit and a woman in red dress or leaving a restaurant and walking to a parking lot to go to their car at night.
Estevan” 58:46
A big 18 wheeler is driving by them and their breaks make a sound that follows the melody of the score that you hear. And I always found this to be a really fascinating type of decision, and it’s subtle, like, I don’t really think anyone watching this movie for the first time would have any reason to notice. I really enjoyed the score so that’s why I may have noticed it the first time.
I realized, oh the scene is communicating in this almost fantasy way that this 18 wheeler is making music due to the way it’s driving.

— Audio

Estevan”
It’s an interesting detail it’s like they made it sound like it’s in the background. It’s not a real instrument. They probably just sampled a truck, and then changed the pitches and played it on the keyboard.

TR in Conversation with Estevan:
Are there certain filmmakers that are known to do this more than others, or is it just sort of random that you notice this?

Estevan:
I don’t think there’s enough there doing it. I think the reason none of filmmakers may be doing it is either there’s budgetary constraints, time constraints, certain limits on that type of creative pursuit. The sort of filmmakers that have done it more consistently would be David Lynch who had the practice of doing that regularly in his films. And then I think often people working with Hans Zimmer. I don’t know if Hans Zimmer brings his own sound design team, but you hire Hans Zimmer for particular things, it’s going to be some sort of big project a lot of times. And so the sound design is often working with him.

The director of Blade Runner is the same directors is dune. Denis Villeneuve. I would say he also is often trying to merge sound design and score.

There’s other directors who’ve done it. They’re just doing it for one particular film and so it’s not obvious to me as to whether or not this is a theme in their work.

TR:
For those interested in learning more about sound design whether for access or just because Estevan has some suggestions.

Estevan”
There are other books about listening and about appreciating sound, which then connects to the topic of film or anything that deals with sound. I’m not going to recommend a book. But rather, I think if you look into any of the writings or teachings, including YouTube videos on individuals such as Pauline Oliveros, who promotes this idea that she calls deep listening. I think that helps a person understand a bit of the philosophy or way to listen. And I think that can inform any part of your life when it comes to the process of listening.

And then you have individuals such as John Cage, who also promoted a bit of the philosophy of us trying to understand or reconsider what music is, and what is this thing we call music. So if you look up any of their teachings or interviews in which they get to express their ideas, I think those two individuals provide a foundational questions about sound and music,.

TR in Conversation with Estevan:
What are some other careers for folks thinking about sound like, whether it be sound design, obviously musician composing, but are there other things that I might not be thinking of that sound design comes into play?

Estevan:
It should be acknowledged that AI is taking up a lot of the oxygen right now, which is a bit of a shame. But putting aside generative AI, there’s an industry of just creating sounds, creating samples, providing it to people. There are people out there who do field recording, who just go out to locations, record environments and share them or even sell them. And there’s individuals like me, and I think I’m hyper niche category where I’ve enjoyed the practice of just listening to recordings of places and things. So I think there’s a lot there when it comes to making sounds, crafting sounds for musicians, and even getting some music software, and then designing sounds in that music software, saving these presets, selling presets.

TR:
As we know all too well, AI is coming for every industry.
— Willhelm scream

Estevan
t’s definitely another conversation that I’ve spent some years discussing it, but I’m still trying to really muster up the energy to continue finding new words, yeah,

TR in Conversation with Estevan:
It sucks. There you go. There’s two words,

TR:
Big shout out to Estevan Carlos Benson. You can listen to some of his music and find out more about his projects at his website, EstevanCarlos.com.

Estevan:
spelled E, S, T, E, V, as in Victor, a, n, C, A, R, L, O, s.com.

TR in Conversation with Estevan:
People who take the time to come on to the podcast and they share their experiences, I gotta let you know…

— You’re Official

Music begins: A piano synth loop that leads to a strong kick and driving beat.
TR:
In 2014 I introduced you to this podcast | It’s a passion project, that means all love, no cash
Over 10 years bringing you nothing but facts | my goal for this has always been impact!
I invite a guest, take a topic tailor it just for you | a disability perspective always shining through
Thanks to my guest for sharing your time with me, You’re official | Reid My Mind Radio Family… RAH!

Official, uh uh official | Official, uh uh official !
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You’re Official! | Reid My Mind Radio Family!

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(Applause)
You’re Official! | Reid My Mind Radio Family!

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Follow or subscribe wherever you get podcasts!
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And so there’s never, ever, ever, ever any confusion
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Sample: D! And that’s me in the place to be! Slick Rick
Like my last name!
— Reid My Mind Radio Outro
Peace

Hide the transcript

TR:

Music begins, a pulsating ominous synth that opens up to a dramatic mid-tempo beat.

TR:

What’s up Reid My Mind Radio?

We’re in between seasons but I wanted to share some thoughts with the family.

Truth is, I wish I didn’t feel obligated to share these thoughts on this particular subject.
I’m hoping one day it won’t be necessary.

Several years ago now, I produced this episode that has really sort of attached itself to me.
It’s the Black Panther episode.
The episode I almost threw away. I didn’t think anyone would care.
I published it anyway.

People cared!

I think.

I’m just ready to move past it.
Meaning, I would love to see those who say they understand and support the need for Audio description to be more culturally aware and competent, put it into practice.

but, it’s like…
Audio sample: “Just when I thought I was out, they pull me back in.” From The Godfather.

— Reid My Mind Radio Intro Music

Sounds of a thunder and rain storm.

TR:

I don’t believe in conspiracy theories.

— Thunder clap

At least that’s how I felt before the phone call.

A day, I’ll never forget.
It was a Thursday.
Damn, it could’ve been Friday.
Either way… I don’t normally answer calls from unknown numbers.
Yet, this one evening, my cell phone rang and Voice Over told me to answer the phone.
Yo! That freaked me out.

Then, I realized after answering the phone that I heard it wrong.
The caller id really said Ann Sur Fonne. I think it’s French.

Wherever she’s from, she called to tell me a bit about the AD Illuminati.

— Thunder clap!

Well, sort of…

This mysterious phone call came on the same day my daughter Riana and I finally had the chance to sit together and watch Judas and the Black Messiah.

It’s a film that explores the FBI’s murder of Fred Hampton. The 21 year old Chairman of the Illinois Black Panther Party who was in the midst of uniting black and other organizations focusing on advancing rights and opportunities for Black, brown and other marginalized people.

The movie was first released in February 21 both in theaters and on HBOMax. I’m not certain about the theater release, but I do know that HBO Max did not yet provide audio description. My daughter refused to watch the film until it had AD and she could watch with her Dad. That’s me y’all!

It wasn’t until sometime during the summer of 2021 that the film received an audio description track on HBO.

Almost a year since its release, January 1, 2022, Riana and I sat down to watch the film.

As far as the movie goes, the two stars, Daniel Kaluuya and Lakeith Stanfield, playing Chairman Fred Hampton and the sell out under cover Bill O’Neil respectively, were both amazing.

It’s never easy to just watch a movie like this as if it were just a story. It’s not. It’s a reminder of a not so distant history a sobering acknowledgment that those in power won’t hesitate to kill when their way of life is threatened.

History shows, that’s often, when Black people are seeking their freedom, standing up for their rights and when there’s a hint of creating a unified front that challenges the establishment.

In 2018, I published an episode that focused on my response to the audio description in Marvel’s Black panther. If you never heard that, I’ll provide a link and hope you’ll take a listen. In summary, I discuss my reaction to the selected narrator. The episode actually goes into much more, but that’s often what’s recalled. I refer to the narrator as the voice of the colonizer – a British white man.

Unlike Marvel’s Black Panther, Judas and the Black Messiah doesn’t originate or belong to the MCU or the Marvel Comic Universe. This story is real. It belongs to us, this is the Black People’s Black Panthers.

I found it pretty ironic that , once again a film featuring a Black Panther is described by a British sounding white man.

— A mix of movie scenes with a dramatic “No” Including “Back to the Future” and “Independence Day”.

I always feel obligated to say, I have nothing against this person as an individual, he’s probably a nice guy.

Truth is, I really don’t have to. This isn’t about one person. It’s about an entire community of people being overlooked.

Anyone choosing to focus on individuals should really ask themselves if they’re really trying to deflect and avoid the real conversation.

— Cell Phone ringing

Not long after my daughter and I finished our post film review and conversation, my cell phone rang.

Yeah, that’s really the ring tone I use. I guess I’m nostalgic for telephones with actual bells on them.

Voice Over saying Ann Sur Fonne!

So I just had to pick it up.

TR in Conversation Flashback::
Hello? (Says hesitantly)

Ann:
What did you think of the AD?

TR in Conversation Flashback:
Excuse me?

Ann:
What did you think of the AD?

TR in Conversation Flashback:
Who’s this?

Ann:
I’m sorry Thomas, this is Ann Sur Fonne, you don’t know me… (Continues talking but fades down to an unintelligible murmur, with narration taking over)

TR:

She went on to explain she’s been listening, watching and reading the things that I and others have been talking about audio description and the need for more inclusion and proper representation of voices in all films especially those that are culturally specific.

She wouldn’t say exactly what power she had but she said she’s on the inside and wants to see change.

Ann:
Have you heard of the AD Illuminati?

TR in Conversation Flashback:
I have but always just thought that was a joke. I thought it referred to [beep]

Ann:
Thomas, whatever you do you can’t say those names out loud or use on your podcast. Your life is in danger if you do.

TR in Conversation Flashback:
What the heck! It’s audio description.

Ann:
Thomas, you said it before and made a damn t-shirt, it’s about more than entertainment.

TR:
Ann talked a bit more. Each time I tried to get more information or even some hint of why using Black voices in films about Black people is an issue, she’d just talk about how much she likes the podcast.

Ann:
I really like your podcast.

TR in Conversation Flashback:
Oh, thank you! Continues talking but fades out and narration over takes it.

TR:

I really need to work on not being easily distracted.

I did get to ask her if there’s any specific connection to Black Panther? I mean

I can’t tell you is all she’d say. Continue to be aware, pay attention and look beyond what you see. I reminded her I’m Blind. We laughed.

Ann:
But seriously, continue to be observant. There are things happening and people claiming they care and want to see change. But as you know now, the AD Illuminati is real and right now, their goals don’t align with yours.

TR in Conversation Flashback:
What exactly are their goals?

Ann:
Nice try Tomas, but I’m already risking my life calling you. I’ll be in touch when I can. Whenever you hear your phone say Ann Sur Fonne make sure you answer. No matter the time of day or night.
Goodbye.

TR:

And that was it, she was gone.

I didn’t mention this to anyone for a day or so because I was just shook.
I finally decided to tell my wife. She just stared at me. I took my phone out to show her my call history.

There was no record of the call.

“I didn’t dream it! I didn’t dream it!” I muttered to myself as I walked off to be alone.

Classic Radio Announcer:
“We interrupt this program for a special news announcement”

Hi, I’m Cheryl Green
And I’m Thomas Reid

Cheryl: That… wait, you don’t look like Cheryl Green.

Thomas: What do you mean?

Cheryl: Well, I mean Cheryl she’s got hair on her head, kinda curly medium length brown hair and she’s got black framed glasses and olive skin.

Thomas: Ok, now that you say that, you don’t sound like Thomas Reid. I think he’s a brown skin Black man with a shaven head and where’s shades and has a full beard and might be wearing like a Wu Tang Clan t-shirt or something like that.

Cheryl: But, we’re both disabled podcasters.

Thomas: Do you think we should say podcasters with disabilities?
Cheryl: – Oh oh, you know, let’s do a podcast about that.
Thomas: Mm! Good idea!

Cheryl: Actually, Thomas and I are working on a project that’s all about disabled podcasts…
It’s called… Oh wait, well, we don’t actually have a name just yet so we’re calling it… oh wait, we don’t actually have the name yet. What should we call it?

Thomas: We should call it, project, project!

Cheryl: Yeh, I love it! Project, Project or like I don’t know, PODAccess.

Thomas: Ok, we’ll go with PodAccess, for now.
With funding from the Disability Visibility Project we’re creating a space for disabled podcasters or
content creators to
Connect with each other, maybe be discovered by audiences interested in your content or share skills and resources

Cheryl: So we want to hear from you…
Current or former Deaf or Disabled podcasters, Deaf or Disabled people interested in starting a podcast or consumers of content about disability or Deafness.

Thomas: We’ve created a survey, that should only take about 20 minutes to complete and we’d really love your feedback.

Cheryl: You can find the survey at https://bit.ly/PODAccess
On that survey you can sign up to receive more information about
Project Project as it develops.

Thomas: Again, fill out the survey at http://bit.ly/PODAccess

Cheryl: Ah, nice job Cheryl!
Thomas: Ah, , you too Thomas! (Laughs)

Classic Radio Announcer: Now back to our show.

TR:
I needed something light to take my mind off this for a while.

I decided to watch the final season of Insecure also on HBO Max.

— Music begins, an anxious melody that continues of a mid-tempo Hip Hop beat. Hip hop

HBO did not provide description for their shows until 2021.

prior to this final season, Blind folks interested in watching Insecure with audio description would need to find an alternative way of accessing the series. Allegedly available somewhere.

If you’re not familiar with issa rae’s Insecure, according to her the show “examines “the complexities of ‘Blackness’ and the reality that you can’t escape being Black.”

While the show is a “black show” it’s characters and subject is universal and relatable.

Sort of like what people with disabilities like to think about disabled content. But you know many non-disabled hear that word and are like oh, that’s not for me!

Similarly, white disabled can hear black and disabled and say, oh boy that’s not for me.

Anyway! Humanity, right?

Insecure is a well done series. Young black people just living their lives searching and figuring out who they are and where they want to go. From Black law firms to the streets , all sorts of Black.

Well, guess what wasn’t Black?
That’s right! The audio description narrator.

And here’s where it gets tricky for me personally. I like and know the narrator. She’s been on the podcast y’all. That makes her Reid My Mind Radio Family!

Let’s be clear, I’m not trying to put people on blast or shame someone for their decisions. To return to the Godfather for a second…
“It’s not personal Sonny, It’s strictly business.”

That being the case, I won’t drop manes, but feel free to look it up. In fact, go ahead and watch the show, it’s entertaining and I support Black content creators.

I really wanted to call Ann Sur Fonne. I wanted to ask her what could be done about this. Does this at all relate to the AD Illuminati?

No need. I’m sure she’d be vague or even worse tell me how much she likes the podcast to distract me.

I really do need to stop falling for that one.

She did encourage me to continue to speak on it and suggested I do the same for others.

So that’s what I’m doing.

Is there really an AD Illuminati?

Is all of this part of some conspiracy?

I believe that those in charge are doing what they know. I recognize that it’s not malicious or done with bad intentions. Folks have jobs to do and deadlines to meet and all sorts of limited resources.

This has been the way it’s been done for years. It goes back to the early decision makers in audio description. They did great things, but they also bear responsibility for where we are today. They chose to not see color. They chose not to seek out culturally appropriate voices. They taught and some still teach the newbies. Has the curriculum been updated or is it the same ol’ thing. You know, that good Ol’ AD!?

I know for many, this isn’t a big deal, in comparison to other issues of injustice or representation. But I disagree! I think it’s just another one. One that will never grab the attention of the mainstream.
It’s black and disabled.

What they don’t see are the core elements that make up the other injustices;
White supremacy
Systemic racism
Ableism, It’s for the Blind so they’ll be happy with whatever we give them.

Ouch!

Yes, hard to hear? Well, it’s not easy to say.

Music begins, an optimistic, bouncy Hip Hop groove.

I offered some possible solutions in the Black Panther episode from 2018.

One worth repeating is seeing the selection of narrator as a casting choice and therefore a responsibility of the director and production team.

If content creators were more aware and involved in the audio description process, I don’t believe we’d have as many of these issues.

I don’t think Issa Rae is aware of the voice providing audio description narration for her show.

, when asked on the red carpet of an award show who she was rooting for, famously and unapologetically proclaimed;

Issa Rae: “Everybody Black. I am. Betting on Black tonight!”

Here’s another consideration for addressing this issue. Individual responsibility.

It’s not just the narrator, audio description is a team sport. No matter where you fall within the audio description life cycle, you play a role.

As I am aware of the process today, broadcasters who commission the AD track have the majority of the power. They are the true shot callers. They dictate what they want the script to look like and the type of voice they want to hear.

AD Directors, Managers, decision makers in general, it’s time to retire the excuses;
“we don’t have anyone on our team.”
“We had such a tight deadline to produce this track”
“We don’t know where to find qualified talent”
All of these excuses just represent the problem. It’s time for you to expand your network, recruit talent and be aware and prepared.

I’ve seen people find qualified voice talent … open your networks, they’re out here.

AD professionals, you have a choice.
If you’re aware of the inequity and say you want to see the change, well, recognize your power.

Narrators!

I find it really hard to believe that you don’t recognize when you’re not right for the project. Rather than finding a way to personally justify that with yourself, why not use your influence to suggest that someone else is hired for the position? Perhaps it’s someone you know and recommend, but in general, speaking up about the subject, being an ally, well that’s powerful.

— “You will not replace us” Chants of Alt Right Mob.
TR:

Is this call for equitable representation threatening?

When it comes to the voice of the narrator on films that are culturally specific, we’re talking about a small piece of the pie. The total number of films and television shows that are focused on BIPOC stories is still a fraction of the total films made today.

White narrators get plenty of work. I don’t see any reason for them to feel threatened by these comments.

This issue is just one part of a much bigger problem.
It goes beyond films like Black Panther or In the Heights. Shows like Insecure. It goes beyond the voice. It’s about the visibility of Black and other people of color

That’s seeing and acknowledging color on screen and stage. It’s recognizing that Blind and Low Vision includes people of color.

Writers!

If you’re assigned to a project, recognize your limitations and ask for help, seek the proper input or suggest that you’re not right for the job.

We don’t need color blind writers.

No silly, I’m not talking about those who can’t see red green or blue, but rather black and brown.

It’s one thing to see Black and brown people when we’re in the majority. At that point, I guess you can’t help it, right?

What about the other films that have a so called diverse cast and include BIPOC characters. The lack of audio description erases them from the Blind consumers screen; rendering people of color invisible.

For Black people and others of color, striving to be seen, heard and in general represented takes place in all aspects of life. What we experience in audio description isn’t unique, it’s a part of that systemic problem that persists throughout society. We can’t wait for it to be resolved outside of audio description and then trickle down. Why not do what we can to address these underlying issues that we’ve all inherited. At the very least acknowledge their existence and commit to doing better.

That’s what this episode is all about today. Doing better…

Music begins, a dramatic piano riff leads into a strong steady beat.

I reached out to some people who I know feel strongly about this issue. Audio description providers who already commit to this idea fully. The Social Audio Description Team who I featured here on the podcast last year.

Together, we’re drafting a pledge that we will invite everyone to sign. That is, everyone who believes in making audio description a representative, equitable and fair space. Those who want to truly see the world in all of its beautiful identities, shapes, sizes, abilities, ….

Do I think a pledge will resolve this? Not necessarily. Right now, I’m interested in eliminating the excuses. We’re in 2022, if you’re not interested in the proper representation of people of color then be firm in your stance and say that.

Don’t tell the community you’re for something while your actions say otherwise.

If you’re in support, raise your volume. I’m talking to consumers as well as AD professionals.

— From Judas and the Black Messiah:
“The whole neighborhood came out. Pushers, grannies, Crowns”
Fred Hampton:
Anywhere there’s people, there’s power”

TR:

I’m hoping to have this pledge published shortly and plan to report back to you. I’ll definitely link to the pledge from ReidMyMind .com and share on my social media pages; Facebook and Instagram @ReidMyMindRadio and
Twitter that’s @tsreid.

Join me in pledging to make audio description or our little microcosm of the world into an example of what we want this place to be. We can’t wait for the rest of them.

In the meantime, according to Ann Sur Fonne, she’s been putting me in position to meet people who want to see audio description recognized for the art it is. People ready and willing to help make AD better for all. People you’re going to meet in this upcoming season of Flipping the Script on Audio Description.
We’re talking:
AD in the lab; Creative approach or Compliance – do we have to choose?
Blind AD professionals, stand up, ya better recognize!
Get some AD to describe this outfit… Blind people are fly too!
And get ready, I’m bringing you La Professora…

The Flipping the Script on Audio Description season kicks-off Tuesday, June 14, 2022.

Come rock with Reid My Mind Radio wherever you get podcasts.
We have transcripts and more at ReidMyMind.com
Just remember, that’s R to the E I D!
(“D! And that’s me in the place to be.” Slick Rick)
Ann Sur Fonne:
“Oh, like your last name Thomas!”

— Reid My Mind Radio outro
Peace!

Hide the transcript

Sound of Vocal booth closing.

TR:

Geez, this idea of trying to open the podcast with something different or catchy is just starting to get to be too much.

If only I had help. If only I had help, If only I …

Sound of Dream Harp!

The Great Kazoo:

(Yawning!) You called?

TR in dream sequence:

Yes, oh great Kazoo. Didn’t you hear me calling you?

The Great Kazoo:

When? Of course not I’ve been sleeping.

TR:

Bruh! Isn’t that your job. To be there to look out for a brother.

The Great Kazoo:

My dear fellow, I’m not only undependable, but I’m a bit of a Kook… That’s why I’m hear remember I’m being punished.

TR:

Really, punished? You act like I call you that often. It’s been a minute since I actually needed your help Bruh. Plus I looked out for you that last time. I sent a very nice email to your supervisor.

The Great Kazoo:

Why don’t you try counting on yourself.

TR:

Oh, it’s like that son? Aight, forget you. I’ll just do the regular intro myself with you, nahmean!

Drop the beat!

Music begins with a Hip Hop Kick drum & bass.

What’s up Reid My Mind Radio Family! My name is Thomas Reid. I’m the host and producer of this podcast featuring compelling people impacted by all degrees of blindness and disability. I should clarify that a bit because I think it may get lost. People impacted by all degrees of blindness and disability? This includes all those experiencing disability directly. A person new to blindness for example. But it also includes their family members and friends. The teachers of the visually impaired, O&M & Rehab instructors who teach the white cane for example or other daily living skills. There are also those in supporting industries from technology, accessibility & of course Audio Description. I consider all of this to be summarized by impacted by all degrees of blindness and disability. For the record, I think our entire society is all impacted by disability, but we don’t all happen to realize that or even feel that way. But don’t worry y’all eventually they’ll catch up with us. That’s on them. So let us just keep doing our thing!

The Great Kazoo:

(Yawning) Oh look, I don’t wish to stay here forever. And since I am supposed to serve you I will try. But take heed, don’t ask for more than you can handle, you may get it.

Sound of reversing Dream Harp…

TR:

Maybe I don’t need help. I think I have an idea after all.

The Great Kazoo:

(Yawning…) Well, see you tomorrow. Maybe. Laughs. Sound effects signaling his disappearance.)

Audio: Reid My Mind Theme Music

TR:

Today I’m bringing you excerpts of some conversations I had over the past few months with multiple Audio Describers. Specifically writers and narrators, each bringing their own perspective and background.

AD is still new. There’s no one “right” way. With there being so much more to Audio Description than what we hear, it’s past time we hear from a more inclusive set of people involved in the process.

So, this is the first in a series I’m calling Flipping the Script on Audio Description. You know, sometimes you just need to hear from another side.

Now let me introduce you to my guests.

Alejandra:
My name is Alejandra (American English accented) or Alejandra Ospina depending on your audience.

TR:

That’s what I’m saying! The Reid My Mind Radio Family like our world is diverse. And that’s how we roll!

(Music begins)

Alejandra:

My business cards have a long list of things, but I like to consolidate it into what I’m calling a Media Accessibility Provider. I do Close Captioning and I do transcription and I do translation and Audio Description and so I like to imagine the things I’m doing all sort of promote access to content. I don’t consider myself as often a content creator but I like to facilitate people getting to see or hear or know what they’re watching.

TR:

That makes me think Alejandra’s introduction to media access is personal.

Alejandra:

Having close friends and chosen family members that are visually impaired and I’ve spent a lot of time describing things for them so it sort of was a natural progression.

Related sort of anecdotally growing up as the primary English speaker in a Spanish speaking family I spent a lot of time explaining things to so the concept of explaining comes naturally to me.

TR:

That sort of hits home for me. My mom played that role for much of her family. One thing I know is that can be a great way to develop an advocate’s spirit.

Alejandra:

I was one of those folks that got on my high horse which isn’t very high, about having people on social media describe images and photos that they post. So I spent a lot of time in the last five years gently shaming or encouraging people to describe the things they post on social media and over time that has caught the attention of folks in disability community and communities of people that are doing this kind of work. And it was sort of a natural progression.

TR:

Next, one of the first Describers to provide a visual description of themselves. This prompted me to not only begin asking other describers to do the same but really to think about incorporating that going forward with all interviews.

Here’s Liz Thomson, who is currently pursuing a Doctorate degree in Disability Studies.

Liz:

(Spelling her name)
Liz Thomson. I would visually describe myself as a dark skin 5 foot 2 person with black eyes and black rimmed glasses. Currently I have a mostly shaved head with a band of 2 inch short black hair. I identify as someone who is disabled, also bisexual and queer. A Vietnamese adoptee. Mostly grown up and worked in the mid-west. I use they, them they’re pronouns.

TR:

you can say Liz had a fast tracked introduction to AD. Learning of it and experience it all in the same evening.

Liz:

One of my good friends who is Low Vision, he invited me to go to a Disability Cultural Program. At the very beginning of the program they ask if anyone needed headsets for Audio Description. He’s used to that and I think he typically takes advantage of that accommodation, but I had never heard of that. And so I was like hey you know I’ll try it out. So I got my headset. I believe this was kind of like an open mic performance.

TR:

It included things like poetry, dance or movement and other artistic expression. probably not the most traditional first experience with Audio Description.

Liz:

So that really got me hooked!

Chanelle:

My name is Chanelle Carson. I am a Freelance Audio Describer out of Las Vegas, Nevada. I’m also the Senior Audio Describer at the Smith Center for the Performing Arts in downtown Las Vegas.

I’ve been working with the Smith Center for actually 8 years now. About 4, 5 years ago actually, during one of our pre shifts they just asked if anyone was interested in learning how to do Audio Description.

At the time I was 22 just out of college. I had been studying film with a focus on screen writing, I was thinking oh, this sounds like it’s right up my alley. I’m a writer and at the time I was very interested in learning how to do voice acting.

Didn’t hear anything for a few months then they sent me and another woman off to get trained at Joel Snyder’s Audio Description seminar.

[TR in conversation with Chanelle:]

Was it kind of hard to take what you learned and go right into the live stuff?

Chanelle:

Oh yeh! It was extremely difficult going from the training to doing live theater because the training was so heavily focused on TV and film that sure the basic stuff like;
Don’t talk over the dialog, Blind people aren’t idiots – don’t worry about being too tender or politically correct with your description. What you see you describe.

Of course with TV and film when you’re doing description for that you have the lovely pause button. You don’t necessarily have that for live theater.

(Music ends!)

You can’t go hey guys I screwed up can we go back. (Laughs along with TR) So it’s very much having to learn how to do things on the fly.

TR:

Like Chanelle, Liz too completed the ACB AD Training. Similarly, the application was less about TV and film.

Liz:

I’ve done photography ever since I was in middle school. I did photo journalism at my high school newspaper, in college. As a photo journalist I was realizing I wasn’t adding Alt Text. I wasn’t adding description in my captions to make it kind of more integrated. I would add a caption but I wouldn’t add that photo description.

TR:
Today, Liz can take up to 25 minutes crafting an image description when preparing to upload.

Liz:

Sometimes people are like how can you do that? Do the in their eyes the extra time and labor to do the Audio Description. My response now is how can you afford to not.

TR:

Even if you put aside making the world a more accessible place for all (boring!) there are some real benefits:

Liz:

It makes me look at my images more closely. It makes me reflect a lot more on images that I shot.

TR:

That reflection could lead to a better understanding beyond the pixels. Photography biases for example.
Liz:

Not taking images of people with disabilities. Taking more images of cisgender men.

TR:

It’s not just about description – Liz is thoughtful about phrasing.

Liz:

Language is also fluid and socially constructed and also has different meanings over generations and time. Like modern and traditional. Well that means something very different now than it did in 1940.

My first draft will be one way and then I’ll look at it later on in the day and then I’ll change it. If I say something like traditional, then I have to ask myself well what do I mean and also what did I really see.

It’s about writing and saying what you saw.

(Music begins)

Alejandra:

In addition to learning the sort of standard ways that one is meant to do Audio Description for video for things like Netflix and Amazon, I’ve also been thrown into the world of how do you break that open and describe differently in ways that are actually respecting the culture, respecting the art. becoming part of the art and not just being tacked on after the fact because somebody does not want to get in trouble for not providing access.

TR:

I find it very empowering to see a lot of that pushing of the boundaries around Audio Description coming from the disability community.

It’s no surprise that Alejandra has worked with Alice Sheppard and laurel Lawson who we featured here on the podcast. All sharing this way of looking at Audio Description as more than an access accommodation.

Alejandra:

I don’t have a specific background in writing, but I have a specific background in wanting to be right!
[TR in conversation with Alejandra:]

Hmm , hmmm! I like that. (Laughs)

Alejandra:

Laughs…

Given that I have a personal investment with my community and the people that I care about

TR:

That’s the Disability community. When you’re connected like that it’s more than a job.

For the record, there’s absolutely nothing wrong with it being a job that you perform professionally.

Alejandra:

I have AD on for almost everything that I watch as well as captions. And there have been so many times where I’m like you know that’s not right, I don’t like that.

TR:

Word selection, maybe failure to fully describe what was on screen…

Alejandra:

We both know that a lot of it is in the timing. And again it’s because AD is added on after the fact. There’s some really interesting things that I’ve been able to consult with

I did a live Audio Description for a panel sponsored by the New York University Center for Disability Studies. it featured the short films of a film maker named Jordan Lord. They create autobiographical films but the AD is baked into the narration. It’s written in sort of a prose style and the shots sort of follow as it’s written. So it’s not something that you have to add on after the fact. The filming is informed by what the film maker has written. And it’s very interesting. I think more films should be made that way.

(Music slowly fades to silence.)

[TR in conversation with Liz:]

have you always identified as disabled?

Liz:

No, I haven’t. Four or five years ago I was in the Disability Studies program, another student was talking about her letter of accommodation and her relationship to disability and her own disability identity. She also had mental health issues and mental health things and I was like oh my God like I’m also part of this community and I didn’t even know.

[TR in conversation with Liz:]

How do those identities impact how you write description.

Liz:

I don’t think people are talking about this, the identity of the describer or the person who does the voice, who writes it. They’ve made a huge impact on how I think about Audio Description and describe.

TR:

While working on an art gallery project, Liz and a colleague each drafted what they refer to as positionality statements. This included their bio’s and a statement about how they became involved in description.

Liz:

If you’re going to read a book, you might want to know a little bit about the author. You don’t have to.

We are not in a post racial world. I think it’s very important and necessary to know if you’re in an art gallery or theater you definitely need to know who’s writing that book or that script or who’s doing the painting, where they’re coming from.

TR:

Liz who completed the ACB Audio Description project training, refers to one of the lessons taught.

Liz:

In Snyder’s training even in his book, I don’t know about other people’s training and workshops but there’s about two sentences about race and that’s about it.

Basically, just to kind of paraphrase it says to describe race if it’s important.

TR:

The guideline refers to importance in regards to the movie’s plot. But like Liz says:
Liz:

I would offer that it’s always important.

TR:

It’s especially important to those who are marginalized . those who have been under or misrepresented on and behind the camera. Important to those who care about equity & justice. Important to those who want to see the real world which includes so much more than just white men. (My words, not Liz)

Important is subjective. So who should make the determination when it comes to consuming content?

I propose the consumer. In order to do that, Blind consumers need that information.

Liz:

If you are describing race you need to do it for all the people or all the characters not just the people of color because otherwise it centers whiteness. So I agree with that. What I’ve experienced though, race is not described. Even in for example, Black Panther or in some movies or TV shows that is predominantly people of color.

Chanelle:

Traveling Broadway shows, they are so white. (Laughs) I’ll be the first to admit and I am about as white as you can get. Thank God more recently we have had a lot more diversity in shows.

(DJ Scratch… Music begins)

Hamilton is like the perfect example of this. Also Hades Town more recently.

I will absolutely go out of my way to make sure to point out that there are Black actors, Hispanic actors, Asian actors in a show just because I really want to celebrate the diversity of these shows going forward. I’ll do the same thing when I’m doing Circe Sol as well. The audience will always be very diverse as well so it’s great for someone who may not be sighted or may be Low Vision to be able to imagine themselves within that person in the show.

TR:

And if we’re going to change the way we think about race & privilege it’s just as important that non people of color also see and acknowledge & respect this diversity.

Like the saying goes, things are rarely black and white. There’s lots of shade in between. Those shades are important and often reveal other stories.

Liz:

If I do distinguish between someone who might be light or medium or dark skin, is that perpetuating colorism? I don’t want to perpetuate colorism. On the other side, probably when people in TV or film make casting decisions they are making decisions like that. Unfortunately!

TR:

Colorism or the practice of favoritism towards those with lighter skin has its roots in slavery and white supremacy. It’s not exclusive to the US or to African Americans but rather throughout communities of color.

Acknowledging a person’s color as description does not perpetuate colorism. A Blind viewer Wanting descriptive information about a person doesn’t make them a racist. Including editorial such as the prettier or menacing followed by color or racial identification, well that’s another story. It’s going beyond what’s required for Audio Description and providing opinion or analysis – which is the responsibility of the consumer alone.

Alejandra brings up an interesting point around identity.

Alejandra:

I’m Hispanic, but I have a lot of experience code switching and ultimately being very white passing, both in my physical appearance and in my voice. And whether or not I realize it or admit it in different situations that’s opened different doors for me.

TR:

And yet…

Alejandra:

The two things are very separate, AD script writing and AD Voicing, but I’ve done some AD script writing for some Netflix shows as a contractor. Not particularly things that I found super exciting but they needed somebody to write a script and then I didn’t get to voice those things because AD Voice work is like any kind of performance and acting work, they sort of have to want you for the part.

I think it’s important for the voicing of Audio Description to match the tone and the content and the intention of the work. And I don’t see that happening. Not very often anyway.

TR:

And then, there’s physical access for the creation of accessible digital content

(Music ends)

Alejandra:
At a practical level, places that are doing audio production, voice recording and audio books, even our local library that handles recording for the NLS, booths are tight. Wheel chairs are not. This is not an experience that these places generally have. They’re not generally expecting a wheelchair user to come in to record and it’s unfortunately like everywhere else I’ve had to have this discussion. Yes, I use a wheelchair, yes we’re going to have to make adjustments to booths so I can get inside, you can just barely squeeze into the booth and you need space to do these things.

And I’m also very interested in Spanish language content AD as well because there’s not as much of it.

TR:

This raises the question of non-English access in general. Something I fail to personally remember on my own when thinking about access.

Chanelle:
Each studio sometimes has their own rules of stuff that you can or cannot say. You can’t say that they point a weapon at someone. You can’t refer to anatomy in certain cases like you can’t say chest you can’t say butt!

TR:

I’ve heard this about Disney. At first, you may think well, Disney produces a lot of content for children. So they’re being sensitive to the viewer. But remember, it’s on screen. And it’s not just Disney.

It’s not just the censorship that annoys me, but even in terms of researching this, we’d need sighted help.

Liz:

If we as describers similar to people who do interpretation with like ASL, if someone swears, the interpreter should interpret that. I think the captioner should caption that. Because that’s what the person said. So similar to Audio Description, I think we also have that obligation.

TR:

Whatever the medium, television & film, live theater, video games, museums, art galleries and yes, you too right now uploading your images and videos to social media – getting all of these content creators to know and think about Audio Description needs to be a goal.

The benefits of AD extend further than the consumer. We all win!

Chanelle:

Regardless of what I’m watching now if it’s a TV show if it’s a movie if it’s another stage show, I find myself kind of mentally describing it like I would do it for an actual performance. So it’s very much changed my view point of media in general.

TR:

I know I’ve heard some conversation around what qualifies someone as an AD professional. A specific number of training hours? Certification perhaps?

(Music begins)

Alejandra:

Here’s the thing.

There are many folks who do this work because they have particular kinds of voices. Because they can crank it out because they’re smooth and more power to them.

I just am not that kind of describer because I have a very particular investment in my community and in the work that I am producing and that doesn’t mean that other folks aren’t doing high quality work. It’s just that what is informing their work is very different.

TR:

For an example of what’s informing her work, you can hear Alejandra narrating Alice Wong’s Disability Visibility: First Person Stories From the 21st Century right now on Audible. The book is available on Amazon and other outlets and it’s Alice y’all so it’s in a variety of formats because Access is love!

Alejandra does a great job narrating and I highly recommend the audio book.

Shout out to all of my guests for taking the time to speak with me;
Alejandra Ospina (Spanish accented pronunciation)
Available at SuperAleja.org that’s S U P E R A L E J A. O R G
The site Includes links to all social media.

Liz Thomson and Chanelle Carson.

You can find both on Facebook especially in the Audio description discussion group

Sound of News Breaking Segment…

This just in, it’s official! You are all a part of the Reid My Mind Radio Family!

I have a couple more episodes that I’m including in this Flipping the Script on Audio Description series. I’m not publishing them back to back so if you’re interested in the subject and want to make sure you don’t miss the next installment, please allow me to make a suggestion.

Subscribe wherever you get podcasts!
Transcripts & more are over at ReidMyMind.com. And yes, that’s R to the E I D
(Audio: “D and that’s me in the place to be” Slick Rick)

Like my last name.

Audio from The Flintstones:

Barney Rubble:

Do you think he’ll be back?

Fred Flintstone:

I don’t know Barn. Might be better if he wasn’t. Look at all the trouble he caused us.

Audio: Reid My Mind Outro

Peace!

Flintstones continues…
Barney Rubble:

He caused us or we’ve caused us? I wonder which it really is. Augh, I think he’ll be back.

Fred Flintstone:

Ah, looks that way. Goodnight, Barn.

Barney Rubble:

Goodnight Fred.

Hide the transcript

Ajani AJ Murray:

Our friend that we have in common, Cheryl green, told me about you and I’ve been listening to your podcast and I love it! It’s so dope and fresh. I’m kind of a Geek so I watch like a lot of PBS and I listen to NPR and so it reminds me of like radio documentaries. I particularly enjoyed when you were talking to Leroy about the Black History especially from the disabled perspective. I did something like that on my Insta Gram and some of my friends were like keep it coming AJ. So now you’re a resource.

Ajani Jerard Murray, a lot of people call me AJ.

TR:

And me, I’m Thomas Reid
producer and host of this podcast.

I usually reserve the opening of the episode for me to
tell you a bit about what this podcast is all about,
but as you’ll see in a minute, AJ is a media connoisseur,
so I was like man, everyone needs to hear his review.

I like to let new listeners know that here,
we bring you compelling people impacted by all degrees of blindness and disability,
told in a way that sounds

Audio: AJ “Dope” “Fresh”

And I do always hope Reid My Mind Radio can be a

Audio: AJ, “Resource”

For anyone especially those adjusting to vision loss.

And with that said, let’s do this!

Audio: Reid My Mind Radio Theme

Audio: Tom Joyner show…

AJ:
I became a big fan of radio because of Tom Joyner. We went to one of his Sky shows in Atlanta and it was at Greenbrier Mall. It was the whole cast and we listened to the S.O.S Ban. From that point for about 2 or 3 years I did a mock radio show.

TR:

A youngster at the time, AJ study the format of the now retired
Tom Joyner, host of the number 1 nationally syndicated urban
(that’s code for Black) morning radio Show.
AJ created his own show which he put on for his family.

AJ:

To make a long story short as I told you earlier I can really talk and go on long.

[TR in conversation with AJ:]
Laughing…

AJ:

I kind of sort of gave up on going into radio because I realized that in mainstream FM radio you don’t really program your own shows. You’re basically playing the same music and also to get to where I really wanted to be and the kind of radio that I would do is something that you have to be in the game for years and years for, like a Tom Joyner.

TR:

AJ knew his true passion.

AJ:

I’m a huge, huge fan of the screen big and small. From the time I was a very little kid I was always just enamored by the screen . I grew up on three camera sitcoms; Cosby Show, A Different World, Facts of Life, Different Strokes. As I got older there was the Fresh Prince era, the TGIF era, the Martin era, the WB era. My love for television in the very beginning was the sitcom.

TR:

Of course, there’s the big screen.

AJ:

My mom loves film. When it came to film she wasn’t really restrictive on what we could watch. Now we couldn’t watch everything, there were certain films I couldn’t watch but like it was 1989 I remember actually going to see Do the Right Thing. I had to of course cover up my eyes during the Mookie ice scene.

[TR in conversation with AJ:]
Laughs…

AJ:

TR:

Shout out to Rosie Perez!
If you don’t know the scene let’s just say Ice cubes are for more than chilling your lemonade on a hot summer day.

AJ:

I appreciated that several years later.

TR:

Now, I’m from the era where parents let you ride in the front seat with no seatbelts,
where you were encouraged to leave the house and explore so
I cannot judge.
[TR in conversation with AJ:]

You know the movie Death Wish? Charles Bronson. I saw that at 6 and nobody cared (laughs) and nobody cared.

Audio: Scene from Death Wish: Knock at door and unsuspecting woman says she’ll anser it. She asks who is at the door and the intruder replies he’s delivering her groceries…

TR:

Don’t open it! He’s lying!

(exhale)

Fortunately, there’s a lot of good that can come from family movie outings.

AJ:

That’s one of the ways we connected as a family.

[TR in conversation with AJ:]
Very cool. So it was the whole family going?

AJ:
My mom and my two sisters. In my house it’s three women and me.

We’re all very very close. That’s one of the ways we bonded. Sometimes we’d listen to classical music or something really peaceful because I grew up in a very peaceful household.

TR:

Television & movies can also initiate conversations about all sorts of topics and
even ways to explore culture.

Just be careful about that last one there, we know Hollywood doesn’t always get culture right. (Ahem!)

AJ:

I always had this dream of being an actor. It was something that was always looming in the back of my mind. It was always in my spirit, but I didn’t know how to physically make the connection. I couldn’t necessarily afford acting classes at the time and I wasn’t in high school at the time to be a part of an acting club.

TR:

Financial accessibility, we don’t often talk about that in our conversations around access.

AJ, made use of what was in his reach.

AJ:

The screen was my classroom! Anything I could get my hands on or watch or any old interview s. I really appreciate actors that do interviews like I stay stuck on the Biography channel, on Actor’s Studio. Any time there was a documentary series about behind the scenes I’m all over it!

TR:

Screens bring their own access challenges.

AJ:

when I watched re-runs of television in the 50’s and 60’s even like 20 years ago, 30 years ago, they always had like a voice over guy read everything. One of the things I always laughed at is like watching re-runs of the old Andy Griffith show. the announcer says it’s the Andy Griffin Show, starring Andy Griffin and I always laughed because I’m like didn’t he just say it’s the Andy Griffin Show.

But I realize he said that because he was reading the opening credits. Everything was announced. it really helps me as a visually impaired person.

[TR in conversation with AJ:]

People think Blindness is an on or off, so you see everything or you don’t. I know that there are real specific challenges for people with low vision when it comes to that.

AJ:

I’m glad you brought that up. There could be things that I can see one day and the very next day I won’t be able to see. I look like I can see and so people they start laughing or they think you’re lying or they think you’re not looking hard enough. I’m like I can’t see this.

Even when I’m in my power chair I would rather like walk behind someone so it could be like a human guide.

TR:

AJ’s vision loss is related to his Cerebral Palsy or CP.
It impacts all four limbs so as he described to me, he needs physical assistance with most things.

Most things physical that is…

AJ:

If I was watching Happy Days or Laverne and Shirley or Three’s Company or All in the Family I would create a character, none of it is written down because I’m not able to physically write.

If I was watching Three’s Company, if Jack and Larry were going down to the Regal Beagle well I was too. If I was watching Law and order , no I couldn’t be a detective but I could help Jack McCoy as one of his assistant DA’s. I just made myself a part of the cast.

TR:

AJ’s imagination was open.

His opportunity to hit the stage came in high school.

AJ:

I had such a ball in high school. It was such an atmosphere of like were going to support you and you’re a part of us. My favorite drama teacher his name was Dr. McMichen. I was thanking him for making sure the stages had ramps and I was included in on all the trips.
He let me know, you are a part of this club and a part of these plays and it’s because you are good not because you are in a chair. And that made me feel so good.

TR:

following high school he continued working on his craft by attending workshops and finding a community of other actors.

AJ:

I would say over the last three and a half years I’ve gotten the opportunity to be on screen.

the first thing I booked when I got my agent was, we did an episode of Drunk History. And that comes on Comedy Central. That episode was actually about 504Act. That’s kind of the precursor to the ADA.

Then I was able to do an episode of ABC’s Speechless. I played a character named Charlie.

I was able to do an independent film called Bardo Blues. It’s an interesting very nonlinear artsy film that talks about depression and bipolar. I play the neighbor to the lead.

Audio clip from film…

TR:

His latest role is Best Summer Ever, A Musical.
It takes place in a high school.

AJ:

It’s a romantic story and all kinds of teenage angst ensues. I play the older brother so I’m not involved in the teenage angst but I do sing in the film.

TR:

The film consists of a cast of over
60 disabled actors as well as those without disabilities.
It’s being screened at South by South West on March 14.

You can also see AJ in Becoming bulletproof.
Every year, actors with and without disabilities meet at
Zeno Mountain Farm to write, produce, and star in original short films.

Audio clip from film…

AJ is the focal point of the doc.

AJ:

I also did a documentary, it’s called Take A Look At This heart. So I talk about my experience around my sexuality and dating. So it’s an ensemble so It’s not just me. I believe that’s now streaming on Amazon.

TR:

AJ’s getting some roles and definitely
making a name for himself by judging film festivals, hosting events yet
he found himself in a dark place.

AJ:
Heavy dark! Like I was really, really down.

I was on a walk with my mom. I was in California at the time and it was a beautiful sunny day. It came to me, instead of being down about not getting auditions or you know nobody’s calling or you’re having a hard time with employment; why don’t you write what you want to see?

TR:

By now you can tell AJ puts a lot of thought into what is on the screen,
big or little. So of course he would do the same for his script.

AJ:

A lot of characters that we see it’s either one person with a disability and I’m not saying you don’t ever see it, typically they don’t have any friends. To my experience I have a bunch of friends with disabilities. Not just CP, but all kinds of disabilities.

I just want to lend my voice to reflect that on screen.

TR:

Think Living Single, Friends or the Big Chill…

AJ:

These group of friends, People with disabilities in a more adult context. All with different types of disabilities like CP, like me. He also works. Then you have another character who has CP they walk with a gate. Another character she has a traumatic brain injury and she’s very athletic…

[TR in conversation with AJ:]
And may I lobby for a Blind guy who likes audio and…

AJ:

If we get picked up brother I’ll write you in a couple of episodes.
[TR in conversation with AJ:]
There you go man, there you go!

TR:

Alright, fine, it’s not about me.

In order to physically write his words, thoughts and ideas AJ has a very special writing partner.

AJ:
My mom helps me a lot with a lot of stuff behind the scenes. We’re actually working on a book and that’s going to be out sometime soon and we do public speaking.

TR:

The latter is done under the name, I Push You Talk. What a powerful statement.

Pursuing your passion can really be hard.
There are always reasons to throw in the towel or change course.
Legitimate reasons that wouldn’t in anyway classify someone as a quitter.

For example…

AJ:

Just because you perform in school, that doesn’t mean that it’s going to translate to the screen or you’re going to have this career.

TR:

There’s also the physical pain that comes with his CP.

AJ:

I’ve been in pain since my early teens to pre-teens. As I’ve gotten older sciatic pain and nerve pain over the years have like sort of advanced to like more of a chronic level as far as nerve pain.

My love for everything that I experience and everything that I’m going to and want to experience has to be bigger than my pain.

[TR in conversation with AJ:]

You don’t probably see people with disabilities in many of these films that you are watching.

AJ:

That’s a hundred percent accurate.

[TR in conversation with AJ:]

So it doesn’t sound like that dissuades you.

AJ:

I didn’t necessarily have this as a child but with the combination of my mother speaking to me and my imagination, I just had this sense that it was put inside of me so I’m supposed to be doing what I’m doing.

There’s people of faith in my family so I do have spiritual background. With all those things combined because of my atmosphere, I’m the man you’re interviewing today.

Audio: AJ Scratch… Ladies singing “AJ” while beat rides under…

TR:

That’s Mr. Ajani Jerard Murray.
Actor, Writer, Speaker, Consultant and soon to be Author Producer &…

AJ:
Things sort of have this way of coming back around full circle. I’ve gotten into podcasts and I want to start a podcast and I want to do it with a group of people like a morning radio show. Sometimes my dreams are very big and lofty, but I have a lot of faith and I believe it could happen.

TR:

It really does all start with imagination.
And it continues with that determination, persistence and faith.

AJ, brother, thank you for letting me share your story!
And you know what’s up, you are officially a member of the Reid My Mind Radio Family.

You can reach AJ via social media at:
Twitter – @GotNextAJ
Instagram: @AjaniAJMurray
Ajani Murray on Facebook

You can catch both
Becoming Bulletproof and Take a Look at this Heart
streaming on Amazon.
For those with that prime membership it’s included.
Unfortunately they don’t have Audio Description, however Becoming Bulletproof does at it included on the DVD.

Best Summer Ever is screening at South By South West so if you’re hanging out there go check it out.

I’ll have links over at Reid My Mind.com to AJ’s social media and more including a web series on YouTube.

I hope you enjoyed getting to know AJ as much as I have. I look forward to continuing our conversations and I have a feeling based on his thoughtful insight that you’re going to hear from him again in this space.

If you agree that what we’re planting here on the podcast can provide some nourishment or maybe a sweet treat, please share it with others.

Ya dig!

If you want to help it grow a bit, you can even go on over to Apple podcast and leave a rating (5 stars, a review would be pretty cool too!

Please, , do not apply water to the podcast, that will not help it grow at all!

Reid My Mind Radio is available wherever you get your particular flavor of podcasts. Remember links and Transcripts are at ReidMyMind.com.
That’s R to the E I D
Audio: Slick Rick, “D, and that’s me in the place to be!”

TR:
Llike my last name.

Audio: Reid My Mind Radio Outro

Peace!

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