Reid My Mind

AD: A True Crime Story

TR:
What’s up Family? It’s your brother, Thomas… Thomas Reid!
Host and producer of this here podcast. Sheesh!
If you’ve been here for a while, you know sometimes something about audio description gets on my last nerve and I choose to speak on it. Well, that hasn’t necessarily changed.
There’s a lot to be annoyed at.
Sub par AD is running wild out here.
Culturally competent audio description is still extremely lacking.
Streaming networks like Apple choose to use like 3 or four narrators for everything.
Ok, admittingly, I don’t watch that much on Apple, but I don’t think I’ve ever heard a narrator of color on any content.
And to all you Apple stans, please don’t send me one example in their defense.
AD providers still haven’t committed to working with Blind Narrators and QC specialists in a sustainable way.
If any network were going to show support to Blind narrators and QC Specialists, I would have put my money on Apple. This is why I don’t gamble y’all!
Last year, I decided that I’m not going to rant. Well I’m going to try not to rant. That doesn’t mean I’m going to be quiet. I want to find ways to say something but be creative.
So today, I present to you, my take on the true crime genre…
Take it away bro!
Narrator:
The following is a dramatization.
The purpose of this is not to blame, implicate or judge individuals. It is however an artistic expression of the frustration with the current state and foreseeable future of audio description.
While this story is fiction, it does include real people from real publicly held events.
In most cases their names have been withheld, but not the companies they represent.
— Reid My Mind Radio theme Music
— Suspenseful cinematic music
Lies, deceit, murder?
This is the case of AD, A True Crime Story!
— Audio: President Obama signing the CVAA
President Obama:
The Twenty First Century Communications and Video Accessibility Act will make it easier for people who are Deaf, blind or live with a visual impairment to do what many of us take for granted from navigating a TV or DVD menu, to sending an email on a smart phone.
… I’ll sign it now… (Applause)
— An uplifting pop tune.
AD:
I can’t tell you how excited I was when President Obama signed this legislation.
Even watching this now, gives me chills!
Narrator in conversation with AD:
Why was this so special to you?
Oh my goodness!
This was the chance I was waiting for since starting my career!
It might sound corny, but I always knew, this was my calling.
I was certain, this, was the opportunity I’d been waiting for.
Would you mind introducing yourself?
Sure, all my friends call me AD. My pronouns are They Them.
In two thousand ten, AD was only in their 20’s. Relatively early in their career, and they were bouncing back from some setbacks in the early two thousands.
My career really began in theater.
Then, in the 90’s, I got a chance to work with PBS.
I have to say, It really hurts me today as this administration is so set on destroying PBS and NPR.
I not only feel a kinship with these vital organizations because I worked with PBS, but I know what it feels like to have a target on your back.
I’ve been in that position for the past few years.
Not by this administration though. Well, at least, not yet!
AD continued at PBS and while they enjoyed that work, like others, they had dreams of reaching more people.
In two thousand ten, with the signing of the Twenty First Century Communications and Video Accessibility Act, or CVAA, AD’s future appeared to be bright. Advocates worked tirelessly to help pass legislation that would help AD and others not only secure the right to work, but broaden their career opportunities.
No longer would they be confined to limited hours on children’s television, they were going prime time!
I went from begging film makers to include me, to Hollywood specifically calling me! They were now seeing me, as a valuable asset able to enhance their stories!
And then, the streaming services came online. Oh my gosh! Just when I thought life couldn’t get any better.
This was around 2015.
Streaming companies were invested in AD and their talent.
Netflix Representative:
I think we first heard the calls for audio description
around 2014 when we were just launching into our own original content.
We spent most of 2014 doing a lot of the sort of back end work trying to prep ourselves to be able to provide audio description consistently. A lot of different research and creating different technical specifications to make sure that audio description would play back on all the many different devices through which people access Netflix.
We also created audio description style guides. We wanted to make sure that when we were ordering audio description that there was a consistent experience across that was high quality, that used good voice talent, good script writing, and that also met, like I said, the technical specifications so that we could ingest those files and then make sure that they could play back on all the different devices.
We also set up a lot of partnerships with different companies that create audio description to make sure we had a really healthy supply chain. Uh, knowing that we were launching full force into a huge volume of content, we knew that as we made a commitment to create audio description on all of our original content, that that was not going to be a trivial amount. We set up that supply chain and made sure we had good script authors and talent and recording studios, and also made sure that we had a really healthy pool of people who could QC audio description to make sure that we had had a set of ears on the files before they went live, to get ahead of any issues that might come out. So we worked on that for most of 2014 and then in 2015 we launched Daredevil without audio description. So that was definitely a miss, and we heard it from the community loud. Luckily, we had already done all that legwork, like I said, in 2014 so we recovered quickly and put that up, as well as about 100 other titles by the end of the summer of 2015 and from there, we dug in hard on that investment, and I’m happy to say that today, we have over 13,000 hours of audio described content on Netflix.
We’ve committed to creating audio description on all of our original content, and we also do our very best to make sure that we get the licensed content, we’ve actually added the need for audio description to our contractual obligations with our content partners.
It was so promising!
Even better, listening, reading and watching the feedback from the community through podcasts, blogs and YouTube was so gratifying.
You can’t under estimate the value AD brought to the community.
Fan 1:
AD changed my life.
Because I now had access, I find myself in conversations with more people because I can talk about the latest film or streaming series. I’m bonding with more people and I never realized this was possible.
Fan 2:
Watching AD, helped give me the courage to believe I could do more. I wanted to follow in their footsteps and today I’m working in a field that I never believed was possible.
Fan 3:
Today, I don’t watch anything unless it has AD.
With it’s new found popularity and all the opportunity that came from the CVAA, AD moved from one gig to the next.
Live television events like the Olympics and even award shows wanted AD.
More streaming services were coming online and sought out AD.
I was working constantly.
I was even invited on a cruise [laughs] only to find out it was a working trip.
In between projects, I had time to self reflect.
I listened to the community. That was eye opening.
No pun intended.
Ok, huh, AD has a sense of humor.
When I finally understood that my work wasn’t serving everyone equitably, I knew I needed to do a better job.
I realized, I had to better represent all cultures.
I even tapped into my ability to speak multiple languages and started bringing that to my work.
I was excited about not only my future, but what it could mean for my supporters.
Wow! At a time when I didn’t think the work could get better, it became even more of a passion!
— suspenseful music…
So where did things go wrong? What exactly happened to AD?
More after this message.
POD Access trailer
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If you’re currently thinking about launching a podcast, but have no idea how to start?
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— music fades out
Ten years after the CVAA, AD, was having even more of an impact on it’s supporters.
— Covid 19 Pandemic Announcement of Lock down.
In two thousand twenty the Covid 19 pandemic hit and forced corporations around the world to re-examine what work will look like in the near future.
In fact, for many it forced them to consider what workers look like.
Fortunately, some corporations had open minded people in charge and saw talent in the Blind community. Rather than just seeing fans of AD, or consumers,
— An uplifting synth opens to a pop beat.
they saw people who can help contribute and work with AD.
Wait, what?
You’re going to tell me I get to work directly with those who have been supporting me for years?
They say if you love your work, you’ll never work a day in your life.
— Music ends.
Well, I went on a permanent vacation when I got the chance to work with more of my supporters. It made me better!
— Dramatic bass heavy suspenseful drone.
And then things fell apart.
— Downton Abby Scene with TTS
Online Streaming companies turned to Artificial Intelligence (AI) and text To Speech (TTS).
For more on exactly why, we turn to a representative of Amazon
who further explained the company’s position during a panel discussion held in two thousand twenty two at the ACB convention.
Amazon guy:
We looked at the velocity of of how fast audio descriptions were being created. We looked at the very large back catalog of content. And we thought, you know, if we were going to really achieve the vision of what our audio description program is within Prime Video, that every single title is described, and, you know, audio descriptions are generally as available as closed captions are, then we would need to, you know, disrupt how audio descriptions are created. And so we’ve been working on text to speech audio descriptions for about a year and a half to date.
We have over 4000 text to speech tracks live on the service.
We have one person who kind of does everything the writing and the descriptions and the time coding, and then directs the text to speech engine. But we have every single track before it’s published on the service also goes through a human quality control review. So we are making sure that there is a second person involved in the process that reviews and detects those things that you know the writer may miss.
The more iterations you do on anything, the better quality product there will be.
Did anyone consider that yes, quality gets better over time, but in what other field do they release a sub par product to the consumer?
Who does that?
We spoke with AD supporters who shared their frustration.
Consumer 1:
I feel forced to make a decision every time I open a streaming service and launch a series or movie only to hear what I know is TTS.
I know they say they’re working to improve the quality of these voices, but it feels like they’re working harder to try and trick me.
Some of these companies using TTS narrators are crediting and naming the narrator.
Even if that TTS voice is based on a human, that doesn’t feel genuine to me. It feels like you’re just playing in my face.
Using AI in the production process goes beyond TTS.
The mixing is automated as well. And so it’s a separate process that is fully automated. You write the script and you get live feedback on the audio as you’re writing it, but then eventually, when it goes into mixing, that is automated as well.
We definitely realize there as well that is not as good as a human going through and mixing the track, but we think over time, we can build improvements into the track to get it as close or as to human quality mixing in the future.
The benefit of keeping everything automated, and that’s one of the reasons why we’re going fast, and we feel a little bit more comfortable about going quickly, is all of our tracks are never finished. I think that’s an important thing that we can do. We can very easily fix the script, and then, you know, automatically re voice and remix the track. If, if the improvements in text to speech come, we can, you know, use new text to speech engines to, you know, improve, improve the quality of the voicing. And as we’re, you know, making improvements in the automated mixing quality process as well. It’s very easy to for me to take all 4000 of those tracks and rerun them through the new, enhanced improvement in the mixing technology to improve the mix as well.
What?
So a consumer who watches a film that has poor quality description or doesn’t like the TTS voice, should just come back in a year or two to try again?
Who consumes content in that way? How could they say this is a working solution with a serious face?
As we hear from representatives from other streaming companies, it’s obvious, AI and TTS was always in play and part of the plan.
Peacock:
Certainly we are committed to innovation and would look to in the future, find ways of making audio description as efficient. Right and widely available as possible. And you know, text to speech could be one solution that that’s pursued.
I think you know there are ways that industry has to look to be able to deliver more content faster. And certainly, you know, technology solutions like text to speech may help.
Paramount:
Right now we don’t, and you know, we don’t have any immediate plans to do so, but I would say that, you know, my answer to that is, is similar to what Tom said, which is that
it is something that we’re looking at, and in part because, not as so much as a replacement for the live voice version of description, but as a way to possibly expand the amount of description that we have available on something like paramount.
The quality is improving there. It’s,
it’s certainly quicker than doing the traditional way. And it’s less expensive.
so I think it is something that we’re just looking at down the road as something that you know potentially could offer more content with description available.
Hulu:
In regard to Hulu originals, we currently only accept audio description that are read by human voice actors. So we don’t take auto generated or speech to text at this time, and we do try to make sure that we have consistency in our voice talent across episodes and seasons of a series
That was representatives from Peacock, Paramount and Hulu respectively.
Next, hear from HBO Max, Apple and Disney.
HBO Max:
We actually strive to really have our content voice acted. First and foremost, we’re a company. We’re an entertainment company. And you know, our value is really to create great entertainment. So it makes sense.
Apple:
We’re focusing on, you know, live human being, audio description. It’s kind of where we are at the moment. You know, I think, as some people have said, I think no one really knows where the future is going to go, but it’s not where we are currently putting our focus. We like the way things are at the moment.
Disney:
It is definitely something lucrative to look at. However. We have not ventured out that way just yet.

Consumer 2:
All of the effort these companies put into TTS, it’s like their trying to convince me that I want something I don’t want.
Today, it’s hard to find any platform that doesn’t employ TTS.
I think that’s a business decision that each studio needs to make.
We don’t want the trade off to be between text to speech and human that’s not the trade off we’re trying to address that. Really the trade off we’re trying to address is between no audio descriptions and text to speech.
— In order and panned from left to right:
A man confusedly says “Huh”, followed by a woman and dog with similar responses.
Consumer 3:
Why do, they, get to decide my options?
As a Blind consumer, I’m left with two choices, watch, or not.
Not much of a choice in my book!
The lack of choices can make some feel helpless. Not exactly what the CVAA was striving for.
Equal access, equal opportunity and equal respect for every American.
Equal access, equal opportunity, the freedom to make of our lives what we will; living up to these principles is an obligation we have as Americans.
What hurt me the most was, I expected someone to say something in my defense.
It was, after all, an organization of the Blind. I expected more pushback.
Not everyone was silent.
The community WAS speaking out against TTS and AI early on.
Online conversations like Blind Centered Chats, that often featured people from the community were vocal.
Clip from BCAD Chats 001
We didn’t talk about the fact that, well, how do we get the industry to really center blind people and blind and low vision people? Because right now I’m not sure if that is the case when it comes to audio description. I don’t always feel as though we are at the center of this. And there’s many reasons that I feel like that. Number one, I think this conversation about quantity and quality really does come down to who is being centered. Because when we talk about the quantity and really going for that, I think quantity, that whole, that kinda relates back to the whole compliance, let’s just get it done because the government is telling us we need to get it done. And that, to me-
NEFERTITI: Mmhmm. Checking that box.
THOMAS: Yeah. That, to me, brings about the Amazons, the AI, and all of that.
SCOTT N: [growls]
THOMAS: That’s what that’s about. And I think we all, the majority of us probably agree that that’s not really quality, you know, and we’re not centered in that conversation. That wasn’t about us. That wasn’t about bringing a good product to the people. That was more about, again, checking that box, like Nef said, and just making sure our numbers, and we do it efficiently, right? We do it on the cheap. That’s what that’s about. So, we’re not centered.
NEFERTITI: Do it on the cheap, do it at scale.
Other podcasts and content creators were vocal, perhaps not as loud as they could have been, but those in power either didn’t hear or care to hear the feedback.
This clip from an episode of Reid My Mind Radio’s Flipping the Script on Audio Description, reminds us that even audio description providers were sounding the alarm.
Clip from FTSAD: No One Will Save Us Part 2
When I invited Eric and Rhys to join me on the podcast,
I asked them each to bring three to five issues that most threaten the future of AD and some thoughts as to what we can do about them.
Eric:
I mean, there’s a few things that stand out.
Obviously, TTS synthetic speech, however you want to phrase it, I think that’s a problem.
It impacts our voiceover folks. But it also affects every area downstream for audio description.
A lot of companies that have no business being in this space are in this space. And they’re in it in major ways.
Rhys:
And it goes beyond just the sound of the voice, right?
Great narration track is often done by somebody who’s connecting to the material. Well, you know, who doesn’t connect to material? TTS doesn’t connect to the material, there’s no lived experience of being LGBTQ for a TTS voice. Whereas you get the human narrator, skilled, who’s doing content of that type, in the connection that they come through, it’s not performative, but it’s subtle, but it’s there, and it’s present. If you’re an adept listener of audio description, you can hear it, that person gives a crap about what they’re doing. And
we stand to lose all of that.
Does TTS serve a function in audio description? 100%. Like.
How to videos on YouTube, go for it.
That’s an entirely reasonable application for TTS. But if you’re taking premium content, what is it you’re trying to achieve by doing that?
The answer all your questions in life is money. That’s the old cliche.
It’s a pathetic thing that I have to say, but that’s really the answer. It’s always comes down to money.
— Sesame Street Word of the Day!
Can you say capitalism?
Ahh!The truth is, everywhere you look, there’s someone
trying to make a fast dollar by cutting costs and sacrificing quality.
Remember Economics class? Caveat Emptor or Let the buyer beware.
Consumers of all types should be educated enough to know the value of what they’re buying.
In this case, we’re talking about large companies, networks and streaming services that frankly have no experience with audio description.
So, how can they even begin to define quality AD?
Yet still they’re procuring millions of dollars in AD for old and new content.
They’re being misguided, misled because they’re talking to the clowns. They’re talking to people who are trying to sell them on something. They’re not necessarily talking to the audience.
I always encourage them, Are you sure, have you spoken to anybody about this? Has anybody told you by the way the audience doesn’t like this.
But the other part of this is an AD providers. If you’re confronted with that conversation, what do you do? Do you just go? Yes, sir, we can do it? Or do you go and take that opportunity to talk to them about what they’re asking for, to take that opportunity to go? Are you sure that the experience you want your audience to have of your content? That is your precious, precious item is a subpar experience? Because it doesn’t need to be.
Some how, some where, someone found a way to
either justify or convince streaming platforms and broadcasters that AD users want TTS.
TR in Conversation with Eric & Rhys:
Wow, so you telling me that companies come to you? And they say we want TTS?
Yep. They do.
AI and TTS definitely can help a single passion project based podcast to produce an idea in order to express himself and hopefully make a point. But even I agree, there are limits.

— Suspenseful cinematic music

AD is still working today, but they say their future just doesn’t shine as bright as it did in the early years following the CVAA.
I can only imagine the pain of living day after day, being turned down for gigs, while watching as AI and TTS slowly replaces you.
I’m sure that can really take a toll on someone.
it feels like the classic Hollywood story.
Rising up from the bottom after working so hard, and then reaching the top.
It’s one thing to lose after so much success, but I can’t even describe the pain of watching the community move on.
In fact, they even continue to celebrate as if their unaware of the losses.
Sources tell me, AD, is considering going underground.
The less value placed on them the less likely supporters will be inclined to pay for their services.
That’s not really an optimal solution for anyone, but I also understand it is a response.
If AD can only make their way into the hearts and minds of creators, chances are they can have even more of a future. Not only providing the equitable access but perhaps even more of a chance to flex their creative muscles.

AD:
For years, I based my value on my productivity and how I could impact the organization’s bottom line.
I no longer see it that way.
I’m aware of what I bring to the community.
Not only am I helping more people access content, but I’m impacting culture, education, creativity. I’m making relationships and connections that go beyond access.
Today, I’m working more with independent producers who know the value of human centered art.
We’re having conversations that go beyond sticking to the script. I’m being asked for my creative input. This gives me hope and is actually exciting!
A true crime story that ends with the presumed victim feeling optimistic?
This is far from the norm.
Strangely, in this story, the true victims, don’t seem to realize they’ve been lied to.
They don’t know they were deceived.
In fact, some are celebrating as if none of this ever happened.
If that isn’t a crime, tell me , what is it?

— Music continues and fades out.

TR:
Reid My Mind Radio Family!
A few episodes ago I told you all about Portraits and Portals.
A powerful art showcase uplifting disabled artists and disaster survivors of color .
The art takes on multiple formats including audio, poetry, song and visual art.
As this is Flipping the Script, I know we have listeners and readers who are quite skilled in writing description.
Well it just so happens that Portraits and Portals are asking the community to share some of their creative and poetic descriptions for the artwork posted on the site.
They’ll include it among the access resources available for visitors with vision loss.
Just go to PortraitsAndPortals.com and visit the artist pages.
You’ll be able to provide your description for visual art pieces.
Who better than those who rock with Flipping the Script.
I’ll link you there directly on this episodes blog post at ReidMyMind.com.

This concludes the Flipping the Script on Audio Description season.
I’ll be back and hope you stay tuned.

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— Music continues
Transcripts and more are available at ReidMyMind.com.
That’s my address on these internets.
And be careful, there’s a lot of artificial out here. It’s not all intelligent.
Sometimes it’s hard to know what’s real and what’s not.
There’s only one way to make sure you’re traveling safely out here, and you reach your intended destination.?
You gotta spell it right…
that’s R to the E I D!
“D” And that’s me in the place be!, Slick Rick

Like my last name.
— Reid My Mind Radio Outro
Peace

Hide the transcript

Sample: “This is a journey into sound.” eric B and Rakim

TR:
— Sound of the Reid My Mind Radio studio door opening. (A bit of squeak going on with that door!)

Casually singing to himself… It’s time! Time to make a change, we are the people who can do it!

Where are my headphones…
(takes a deep breath)
What’s up family, welcome back to another episode of Reid My Mind Radio.
First time here? Let me tell you about a few things you need to know.

I’m Thomas Reid, host and producer of this here podcast.
Nice to meet you!

We’re in the midst of the Flipping the Script on Audio Description season. This is where we go beyond the mainstream audio description conversation to talk about how this art impacts the community. To some extent, today’s episode is a continuation from the last featuring Kemal Gorey.
In that episode, we saw how audio description was a tool for Kemal to compose the score for a silent film.
That got me thinking, hmm, do we as Blind consumers of visual content, listen to sound and music in a film in a way that helps us interpret that content?

Today’s episode may not feel like what you’ve come to expect from Flipping the Script, but I invite you to listen, carefully.

— Reid My Mind Theme Music

Estevan:
Hello. My name is Estevan Carlos Benson, and I live in Los Angeles, originally from Texas. I am an artist, educator, musician and composer. Right now I teach at USC Art Center, College of Design and Pasadena City College in the Southern California area. My pronouns are he, him and I am black and Mexican. Brown skin tone, beard, shaved headand about medium build wearing a brown shirt and glasses that I describe as very reminiscent of 1980s computer programmer.

TR:
Shout out to all my Black and brown brothers with bald heads and beards.
You know, every now and then I invite someone on with no personal relationship to disability.

Estevan:
The extent of my relationship is teaching subjects that deal with accessibility, something under the umbrella of user experience. It’s meant to be broad. Generally dealing with screen based experiences that could be web, but any sort of application. So it’s a little bit agnostic with the technology.

I’ve taught some classes where we’ll talk about music applications we may discuss;
how are people understanding the screen?
How do we handle things such as color blindness in order to communicate effectively. How do we deal with different aspects of vision, of legibility for the screen? And then, of course,
when it comes to the web, then we discuss the accessibility guidelines.

TR:
Today’s conversation is not about WCAG, but it is sort of related to the user experience.
AD users.

In addition to teaching, Estevan is a musician and composer.

Estevan:
Probably like most other musicians, I started off as a young person interested and intrigued by music.
I really enjoy those early years of being extremely curious.
I’m hearing music. I’m fascinated by what I hear. I took some fundamental kind of piano lessons as a preteen that held my attention to some extent.
Then eventually, I had a uncle who gave me access to a computer and early MIDI sequencer or notation software.
Just writing notation to play back generic piano sounds. As a teenager, got a synthesizer, and kind of went from there. So I’ve been making music since I was probably 16 or 17.

TR:
Estevan studied music as an undergrad and became quite passionate about the science of digital music. He continued making his own music and was encouraged to consider scoring for films.

Estevan:
So in 2020 I decided to get more involved that community. And so I’ve worked on small independent short films, documentaries, and then also got more involved with interactive music and composing for art installations.

TR:
Prior to 2020, music for film was part of Estevan’s music education.

Estevan:
I loved understanding the theoretical aspects of it and just the fundamentals. I remember reading a book from Walter Murch, who is possibly more known as an editor. He’s one of the editors of the early Star Wars films, but he’s also a sound designer. One of his books is called Conversations with Walter Murch. It’s fantastic. It was very inspiring. It was great to read someone discussing sound design in a very serious way and reflecting on how he approached it and here’s how we can all think about sound in our film.
That generally informed my approach later on.

TR:
The book, titledThe Conversations: Walter Murch and the Art of Editing Film
is available on Bookshare.org.

TR in Conversation with Estevan
Tr in Conversation with Estevan:
What exactly is sound design? How would you define that for folks?

Estevan:
You’re manipulating sound, carving and crafting sound to express or to represent. Sometimes the sound needs to be open to interpretation, and maybe a lot of interpretation. So it’s an expression, it can be mood. And then sometimes the sound is intended to represent something, it may lean towards more literal representation, similar to how there can be a tradition of visual communication between something that is abstract, open to a lot of interpretation, and then something that’s representational, that is intended to look like a thing.

TR:
So the same applies to sound.

An example of a more representational sound would be foot steps when someone is walking down a street.
While a melancholy musical score may express their mood.

Estevan:
I think when Walter Murch is talking in that book, he’s trying to help the reader understand that there is much more room for expression here than his peers or people in the past have taken seriously. Not to say that every film of the past only uses sound representationally to literally represent something, but when you have a medium that is less understood, it may be more difficult to be expressive in it.

TR:
We know society focuses much more on visuals in comparison to sound. It’s the difference between audio description and captions. We have more words to describe visuals than we do for sound. Turn on captions for your average television show or film and I can almost garuntee the sounds of the film including music will be minimally described if at all.

Like “music plays”. (Filtered voice)What’s that?

Estevan:
So I think that is one of the changes and shifts that we’ve had, I suspect, in film over these many decades of using sound in ways that can be expressive and not just hyper literal representation.

TR in Conversation with Estevan

Do sound designers, like other artists, specialize , like, a literal sound designer versus someone who’s more interpretive expressionist. Or do you have to have the ability to do both?

Estevan:
Under the umbrella of sound design, you may include someone known as the foley artist, or Foley sounds. So if you’re including that that person is leaning towards, not always, but leaning towards more representation of what is on the screen. So that does exist. But does someone have to really focus on one area or the other? Not necessarily, if you are a Foley artist or Foley person, then yes, you will be likely leaning towards representing information. But for most people who have the title of sound designer they really need to be able to move in any direction to kind of just fulfill the goals of the project.
TR:
you probably heard of Foley artists. They’re the folks who make all the sounds for the films. Literally, making the sounds.

Take your average fight scene in a movie. It’s probably going to consist of punches,
— Sample Sound of a punch.

kicks
— Sound of kicking.

and my favorite breaking tables, chairs and glass.
— Sounds of a wooden table and glass breaking.
It kind of reminds me of my latest bar fight.
It wasn’t my fault, I was just passing time and stepped into a bar for a drink. I was waiting for the bartender…

— Dream harp

Voice calls out: “Jimmy”

TR:
I tried taking a seat at the bar when all of a sudden.

— Sound of breaking glass.

TR in Bar: “Oh my bad. Please, let me buy you another drink.”

Guy in Bar:
“Look a here, we got a blind guy come knock down my beer and now says he gonna buy me another one.”

TR in Bar: “Hey man, I’m just trying to be polite. I’m not looking for any trouble.”
Guy in Bar: Ya heard that Billy Bob, blind boy says he ain’t LOOKING for trouble. Show him what we do around these parts”

— Sound of something moving through the air.

TR in Bar: Sounds like nun chucks. Seriously, I’m Blind, you’re not impressing me.
Hey man, please don’t put your hands on me. You don’t want to make me angry.
Guy in Bar: Ya heard that Billy Bob, we don’t want to make Ray Charles here angry.”

TR in Bar: Ok, this is what we’re doing today?

— Punches,kicks and glass breaking begin.
Pow! Zap! Splatt!

TR in Bar: Hey, if anyone sees the bartender, please order me a vodka cranberry while I handle these fools.

Splatt! Zap! Pow!
— Reverse dream harp.
TR:
Ok, , I don’t endorse violence in any form.
Well, some of my fondest memories involve violence.

— Audio from a fight scene in the original Batman television series with lots of Pow! Zaps! Splatt!

TR:
Today there are lots of sound libraries with pre recorded sounds for all sorts of situations,
films with larger budgets continue to customize their sound design.

— “Ah, you caught us Batman, but your crime fighting days are over.” From Batman

TR in Conversation with Estevan:
I want to know about some of the basics that we should be listening for when we’re consuming visual content.

Like that creaking door. Something’s about to happen. Get out of there.

(The two laugh)

TR:
I know, who am I to talk about a creeking door. That was my actual door in the intro.
But the joke was right there.

Estevan:
So we’re asking, what is the sound designer doing that they hope the audience may listen for. And I think what’s interesting about that question is normally, the sound designer recognizes and acknowledges some of the detail they’re putting in there will not be heard at a conscious level.

Our brains or mind has to filter out a lot of information that we’re dealing with as we’re navigating spaces and experiences. So when we’re listening to anything, we’re not really able, nor necessarily should we be hearing every single thing all at once. So the sound designer has to work with that in mind they’re going to craft something, and the audience may sort of hear it consciously, but sort of won’t hear it.
So the audience can tell ourselves to listen to everything. I think one way to do that is to see if your mind can focus on the quiet sounds during moments that are loud.

TR:
We’re talking about active listening.

Estevan:
For example, you may have someone like shouting and yelling, but there may be quiet sounds in the background or in between that might tell you some of the story. That might be the subtlety that the director and sound designer are trying to express. I find in some scenes where there’s a lot of activity multiple people talking over each other and things like that, there can be subtle sounds in between here and there that are helping to express the scene, but easy to overlook because you’re trying to listen to the dialog. And then I think other sounds we sometimes may easily overlook that one can’t pay attention to, are the environmental sounds, the tones of a space, room tones and so forth, that can help give you context. And are not just there to tell you a place, but may also be there to represent a mood sometimes.

TR:
My home office used to be right off the kitchen on the main floor. I was very aware of any cars or trucks that drove into my driveway which was on the opposite side of the house.
This is active listening in my daily life.

Something I think I unknowingly trained myself to do because I want to knowif someone is entering my space. Eh yo, back up son!

Estevan:
You’re describing how your mind and our minds in general, can be attuned to certain things. So the issue isn’t so much that the car pulling into the driveway may be exceptionally loud. It may not be, but your mind is able to observe it, and then it is set up in so that upon. Observation, it becomes an important detail to you, and so you notice it.
For other folks, their mind is not a tune, and so they won’t notice it at all, And that is the interesting challenge of listening to a film, especially for the first time, there’s so much that you can miss, the mind becoming attuned to the details of first experience. I can’t imagine that being particularly easy at all.

TR:
Definitely not easy, it will take some real practice. Personally, I’ll start with a film that I’m already familiar with. Of course, not all films pay as much atttention to sound, but this exercise could probably be done with a lot of films.

The worst possible outcome, I revisit some familiar content again.
But the potential benefit could be additional access and perspective as well as another way to explore the world.

Estevan:
I don’t imagine the sound designer is having to put in a lot of nuance or detail into the sound design. But then some films they absolutely may be doing that. And so there actually may be a lot there to find and to listen for.

TR in Conversation with Estevan:
so what are some common examples of things that sound designers put in that can help interpret a story? There’s the obvious , that creepy music that comes on when something’s about to happen. What are some things that we could recognize?

Estevan:
Well, the first thing that came to mind right now, which is really, really silly, but you almost have to get it out of the way, is the trope, kind of the inside joke from sound designers, which is the Wilhelm scream that is put into probably hundreds of films at this point. I don’t know if you’ve heard of the Wilhelm scream?

TR:
You may not recognize the name, but I’m sure many of you heard it.

Estevan:
I believe there’s some 1950s film Western, and in this scene, some cowboy is shot off of his horse. He falls off and he screams.

— Wihlelm Scream

That scream has been resampled probably hundreds of times and used in so many films.

TR:
It’s not just westerns.

— Transition
— Sound of door slowly opening
— Ominous scary ambience
— Slow footsteps

TR:
Over the years the scream could be heard in all sorts of genres.

AD: A seven foot green creature with scalely skin with huge red eyes and a mouth filled with sharp fangs enters the Reid My Mind Radio studio.
The creature approaches Thomas bearing it’s fangs and raises it’s hands with nails as sharp and long as machetes.

— Monster grunt

TR:
… Sci fi, comedy…
(Fearfully)
Who is there?What do you want?
Oh my , no, no, no!

— Monster roar
— Slashing sound
— Wilhelm Scream.
— Sound of ripping, crunching and tearing apart.

— Transition

Estevan:
For traditional horror structures, there’s emphasis of silence or quiet tones before climax.
It’s something we noticed where the person is walking down the dark hallway, and previously, where we heard loud environmental sounds, room tones. All of a sudden we no longer hear that. All of a sudden, we’re hearing maybe an exaggerated silence or a soft tone, and that’s how we anticipate that it’s trying to lead to something.

TR:
Good news everybody, I’m okay!

The sound design plays a part in how we react. It’s what causes you to talk back to the screen.

Girl you better run, he’s right behind you. Run, run! Augh dang!

Estevan:
And then there are less obvious scenes where you could re watch something and be like, oh, wait a minute, maybe those sounds we heard just a moment ago were relating to this. I imagine that could happen in some films.

TR:
I remember watching a movie where a person was hit by a train.
It wasn’t until that moment where I recalled hearing the train off in the distance at the beginning of the scene.
The subtle sound of the train was a foreshadowing of what was soon to come.

Estevan:
yeah, that’s a good example, and it’s reminding me of a film I saw. They had some sound design that I would describe as very organic, meaning it didn’t clearly sound like some sort of synthesized sound. It also wasn’t really meant to represent a synthesized sound. It sounded like objects moving in a space. Think of how wind chimes have kind of this smooth but kind of moving sound to it, like one chime followed by another.
I would say initially, you may or may not notice it to some extent as a part of the environment, but as the film continued, you would notice some emphasis on it during some moments, and you’d realize, oh, it’s that sound again, but in the scene, they were not visually showing what it is. It was meant to represent something, but I don’t necessarily know what the director’s intent was.

I think it was a good example of the director and sound designer communicating something which, in my opinion, I think that it was mostly communicating feeling. I found myself super intrigued by, like, Oh, wow. What? What is that object, you know, yeah, you know, really, really interesting. Yeah,

TR in Conversation with Estevan:
Often in a film, there are these scenes they’re putting stuff in there and, they might represent something, or maybe they don’t, but they’re there for you to sort of take, right? And I don’t necessarily think about that with audio all the time. I feel like there’s another level of enjoyment, there’s another level of even just interest right in a film that you can gather audibly.

TR:
Imagine, you’re watching a film and the story isn’t really doing it for you, but the sound, now that sort of has it’s own thing going on.

Estevan:
Yeah, without a doubt.

That’s pretty much how the recent Dune movies are for me. I’m fine with the story. I have a feeling the book is highly engaging. I find the direction of the films to be effective. They’re lovely, but I’m honestly just so entranced by the score and sound design that I just really enjoy listening to it. And there are films where I will just buy it, because I really enjoy listening.

TR:
To be clear, Estevan is referring to both the music of the film or the sound track and the sound design.

Estevan:
You can buy the score for these films. You can’t buy the sound design, and I absolutely hate that. There are some films where the marriage between the two to me is so special, so beautiful, but you cannot gain access to the sound design. If I could listen to some films with zero dialog. There’s some films I only want to hear the sounds and the score. So sometimes I will struggle to ignore the dialog, but I’m really trying to hear the sound design and the score.

TR in Conversation with Estevan:
I wonder if there are any examples that we can maybe walk through to illustrate some of the sound design that goes on.

Estevan:
Sure, yeah. So here we have Star Wars Episode Four from 1977 Walter Murch worked on this. He’s the one who was interviewed in conversations with Walter Murch.

This is when Vader comes in. A comment in YouTube says that Mark Hamill asked George whether or not this scene needed more exposition, this is supposedly hamills quote. Aren’t you going to cut to two characters saying, Who is that? That’s the Dark Lord of the Sith, because Hamill wasn’t sure that the audience would understand that this was a bad guy. And so this is a really interesting scene, because it’s the sound and the music that helps us understand that.

— Beep! “Take 1″ Film clabboard!
— clip here…

TR:
George in this case is of course George Lucas, director of Star Wars.

George replied and I quote” Bruh, mind you’re business and watch this.”
Ok, maybe not a quote. But I bet he was thinking it.

Estevan:
George felt that yeah, just the sound in the visual would tell the audience enough of how to interpret it. What do you think you heard when Vader enters the screen? What are your thoughts?

TR in Conversation with Estevan:
I heard a laser type of sound thing going on there, even that breathing, Darth Vader’s breathing, it doesn’t sound like it’s friendly.
The footsteps I hear approaching
There was all that explosions going on, There was that gong sound, and then all those horns,
so something’s happened. And again, with the footsteps,
But then there was another tone that’s sort of underneath that where I’m feeling that, I was drawn to that.

Estevan:
That, tone underneath comes in when Vader is walking into the scene, and it’s a low rumble. And so films will often use, especially when in the theater use a low rumble for emphasis. In the beginning, we don’t feel a lot of low frequency rumble there, but as soon as Vader comes in, the lasers get quiet. We we have emphasis on his breathing, footsteps and a low rumble. And so that was helping to communicate a tone without the need for any additional dialog to tell you how to feel about it,

TR:
So instead of that ominous music we replace it with this:
— Cartoon music

And we change Darth Vaders footsteps to this…
— A child stepping in bouncy, squeaky slippers.
TR:
Laughs! I’m having way too much fun.

Estevan:
Here’s an interesting scene from Punch Drunk Love, but I think it’s a little bit complicated. I enjoy it because it’s showing a bit of the range of how to work with musical score and sound. So in this scene, we’re going to hear an instrument called a harmonium, which is a type of organ instrument playing a melody. We’re going to hear a lot of environmental sounds, which is part of the sound design. And the sound design and the score become a little bit blurry at some point. Iin this scene, a man in a blue suit and a woman in red dress or leaving a restaurant and walking to a parking lot to go to their car at night.
A big 18 wheeler is driving by them and their breaks make a sound that follows the melody of the score that you hear. And I always found this to be a really fascinating type of decision, and it’s subtle, like, I don’t really think anyone watching this movie for the first time would have any reason to notice. I really enjoyed the score so that’s why I may have noticed it the first time.
I realized, oh the scene is communicating in this almost fantasy way that this 18 wheeler is making music due to the way it’s driving.

— Beep! “Take 2″ Film clabboard!
— Scene from Punch Drunk Love

Estevan”
It’s an interesting detail it’s like they made it sound like it’s in the background. It’s not a real instrument. They probably just sampled a truck, and then changed the pitches and played it on the keyboard.

TR in Conversation with Estevan:
Are there certain filmmakers that are known to do this more than others, or is it just sort of random that you notice this?

Estevan:
I don’t think there’s enough there doing it. I think the reason none of filmmakers may be doing it is either there’s budgetary constraints, time constraints, certain limits on that type of creative pursuit. The sort of filmmakers that have done it more consistently would be David Lynch who had the practice of doing that regularly in his films. And then I think often people working with Hans Zimmer. I don’t know if Hans Zimmer brings his own sound design team, but you hire Hans Zimmer for particular things, it’s going to be some sort of big project a lot of times. And so the sound design is often working with him.

The director of Blade Runner is the same directors is dune. Denis Villeneuve. I would say he also is often trying to merge sound design and score.

There’s other directors who’ve done it. They’re just doing it for one particular film and so it’s not obvious to me as to whether or not this is a theme in their work.

TR:
For those interested in learning more about sound design whether for access or just because, Estevan has some suggestions.

Estevan”
There are other books about listening and about appreciating sound, which then connects to the topic of film or anything that deals with sound. I’m not going to recommend a book. But rather, I think if you look into any of the writings or teachings, including YouTube videos on individuals such as Pauline Oliveros, who promotes this idea that she calls deep listening. I think that helps a person understand a bit of the philosophy or way to listen. And I think that can inform any part of your life when it comes to the process of listening.

And then you have individuals such as John Cage, who also promoted a bit of the philosophy of us trying to understand or reconsider what music is, and what is this thing we call music. So if you look up any of their teachings or interviews in which they get to express their ideas, I think those two individuals provide a foundational questions about sound and music,.

TR:
Anyone Interested in a career in sound design?

Estevan:
It should be acknowledged that AI is taking up a lot of the oxygen right now, which is a bit of a shame. But putting aside generative AI, there’s an industry of just creating sounds, creating samples, providing it to people. There are people out there who do field recording, who just go out to locations, record environments and share them or even sell them. And there’s individuals like me, and I think I’m hyper niche category where I’ve enjoyed the practice of just listening to recordings of places and things. So I think there’s a lot there when it comes to making sounds, crafting sounds for musicians, and even getting some music software, and then designing sounds in that music software, saving these presets, selling presets.

TR:
As we know all too well, AI is coming for every industry.
— Willhelm scream

Estevan
t’s definitely another conversation that I’ve spent some years discussing it, but I’m still trying to really muster up the energy to continue finding new words, yeah,

TR in Conversation with Estevan:
It sucks. There you go. There’s two words,

The two laught.

TR:
Big shout out to Estevan Carlos Benson. You can listen to some of his music and find out more about his projects at his website, EstevanCarlos.com.

Estevan:
spelled E, S, T, E, V, as in Victor, a, n, C, A, R, L, O, s.com.

TR in Conversation with Estevan:
People who take the time to come on to the podcast and they share their experiences, I gotta let you know…

— You’re Official

Music begins: A piano synth loop that leads to a strong kick and driving beat.
TR:
In 2014 I introduced you to this podcast | It’s a passion project, that means all love, no cash
Over 10 years bringing you nothing but facts | my goal for this has always been impact!
I invite a guest, take a topic tailor it just for you | a disability perspective always shining through
Thanks to my guest for sharing your time with me, You’re official | Reid My Mind Radio Family… RAH!

Official, uh uh official | Official, uh uh official !
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Estevan carlos benson
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Sample: “One” Chuck D!
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Follow or subscribe wherever you get podcasts!
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And so there’s never, ever, ever, ever any confusion
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Sample: D! And that’s me in the place to be! Slick Rick
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— Reid My Mind Radio Outro
Peace

Estevan”
I appreciate it. Yeah. I really do.
— Audio from Batman

Even though there are lots of sound libraries with pre recorded sounds for all sorts of situations, films with larger budgets continue to customize their sound design.

TR in Conversation with Estevan:
Again, the idea behind this episode is to help ad users really think more about audio and get more from a film.
So think about how we can interpret what’s taking place on screen, via the audio.
So I want to know about some of the basics that we should be listening for when we’re consuming visual content.

Like that creaking door. Something’s about to happen. Get out of there.

(The two laugh)

TR:
I know, who am I to talk about a creeking door. That was my actual door in the intro.
But the joke was right there.

Estevan:
So we’re asking, what is the sound designer doing that they hope the audience may listen for. And I think what’s interesting about that question is normally, the sound designer recognizes and acknowledges some of the detail they’re putting in there will not be heard at a conscious level.

Our brains or mind has to filter out a lot of information that we’re dealing with as we’re navigating spaces and experiences. So when we’re listening to anything, we’re not really able, nor necessarily should we be hearing every single thing all at once. So the sound designer has to work with that in mind they’re going to craft something, and the audience may sort of hear it consciously, but sort of won’t hear it.
So the audience can tell ourselves to listen to everything. I think one way to do that is to see if your mind can focus on the quiet sounds during moments that are loud.

TR:
We’re talking about active listening.

Estevan:
For example, you may have someone like shouting and yelling, but there may be quiet sounds in the background or in between that might tell you some of the story. That might be the subtlety that the director and sound designer are trying to express. I find in some scenes where there’s a lot of activity multiple people talking over each other and things like that, there can be subtle sounds in between here and there that are helping to express the scene, but easy to overlook because you’re trying to listen to the dialog. And then I think other sounds we sometimes may easily overlook that one can’t pay attention to, are the environmental sounds, the tones of a space, room tones and so forth, that can help give you context. And are not just there to tell you a place, but may also be there to represent a mood sometimes.

TR:
My home office used to be right off the kitchen on the main floor. I was very aware of any cars or trucks that drove into my driveway which was on the opposite side of the house.
This is active listening in my daily life.

Something I think I unknowingly trained myself to do because I want to knowif someone is entering my space. Eh yo, back up son!

I’m certain many of you in the family are more experienced active listeners.

TR in Conversation with Estevan:
I’m hoping that this is helpful, because there’s so much that we miss from a film that’s going on visually, and it would be nice, like, if there’s more to pick up from that, again, just beyond the AD.

Estevan:
That’s exactly it, that that’s what you’re describing. The car in the driveway sounds like it’d be a little bit subtle. You’re describing how your mind and our minds in general, can be attuned to certain things. So the issue isn’t so much that the car pulling into the driveway may be exceptionally loud. It may not be, but your mind is able to observe it, and then it is set up in so that upon. Observation, it becomes an important detail to you, and so you notice it.
For other folks, their mind is not a tune, and so they won’t notice it at all, And that is the interesting challenge of listening to a film, especially for the first time, there’s so much that you can miss, the mind becoming attuned to the details of first experience. I can’t imagine that being particularly easy at all.

TR:
Definitely not easy, it will take some real practice. Personally, I’ll start with a film that I’m already familiar with. Of course, not all films pay as much atttention to sound, but this exercise could probably be done with a lot of films.

The worst possible outcome, I revisit some familiar content again.
But the potential benefit could be additional access and perspective as well as another way to explore the world.

Estevan:
I don’t imagine the sound designer is having to put in a lot of nuance or detail into the sound design. But then some films they absolutely may be doing that. And so there actually may be a lot there to find and to listen for.

TR in Conversation with Estevan:
so what are some common examples of things that sound designers put in that can help interpret a story? There’s the obvious , that creepy music that comes on when something’s about to happen. What are some things that we could recognize?

Estevan:
Well, the first thing that came to mind right now, which is really, really silly, but you almost have to get it out of the way, is the trope, kind of the inside joke from sound designers, which is the Wilhelm scream that is put into probably hundreds of films at this point. I don’t know if you’ve heard of the Wilhelm scream?

TR:
You may not recognize the name, but I’m sure many of you heard it.

Estevan:
I believe there’s some 1950s film Western, and in this scene, some cowboy is shot off of his horse. He falls off and he screams. That scream has been resampled probably hundreds of times and used in so many films.

Estevan:
Every new film you see, especially if it’s an action film, you can attune your ears to hear it.

TR:
It’s not just westerns.

— Sound of door slowly opening
— Ominous scary music

Over the years the scream could be heard in all sorts of genres.
AD: A seven foot green creature with scalely skin with huge red eyes and a mouth filled with sharp fangs enters the Reid My Mind Radio studio.
The creature approaches Thomas bearing it’s fangs and raises it’s hands with nails as sharp and long as machetes.
TR:
… Sci fi, comedy…
(Fearfully)
Who is there?What do you want?
Oh my , no, no, no!
— Wilhelm Scream.

– Promo –
TR:
Reid My Mind Radio Family, onn August 27th at 2PM ET, one of our family members, Justice Shorter, is hosting Portraits & Portals – a powerful art showcase uplifting disabled artists of color and disabled disaster survivors of color.

(Filtered Voice) I’m one of the artists who was paired with a disaster survivor to help tell their story.

It takes place online on August 27 at 2 PM ET.
Hosted by The Partnership & Seeded Ground.
You can register at : https://tinyurl.com/portraitsportals.
Or, head on over to this episodes blog post at ReidMyMind.com and I’ll link you to the registration.

Back to the Episode
– End Promo –

Estevan:
For traditional horror structures, there’s emphasis of silence or quiet tones before climax.
It’s something we noticed where the person is walking down the dark hallway, and previously, where we heard loud environmental sounds, room tones. All of a sudden we no longer hear that. All of a sudden, we’re hearing maybe an exaggerated silence or a soft tone, and that’s how we anticipate that it’s trying to lead to something.

TR:
I’m okay everybody! (Giggles)
I just wanted to bring Estevan’s example to life.
The sound design plays a part in how we react. It’s what causes you to talk back to the screen.

Girl you better run, he’s right behind you. Run, run! Augh dang, get up.
I wonder if there’s a name for the inevitable fall when a woman is being chased on screen?

Estevan:
And then there are less obvious scenes where you could re watch something and be like, oh, wait a minute, maybe those sounds we heard just a moment ago were relating to this. I imagine that could happen in some films.

TR:
I remember watching a movie where a person was hit by a train. It wasn’t until that moment where I recalled hearing the train off in the distance at the beginning of the scene.
The subtle sound of the train was a foreshadowing of what was soon to come.

Estevan:
yeah, that’s a good example, and it’s reminding me of a film I saw.

They had some sound design that I would describe as very organic, meaning it didn’t clearly sound like some sort of synthesized sound. It also wasn’t really meant to represent a synthesized sound.
It sounded like objects moving in a space. Think of how wind chimes have kind of this smooth but kind of moving sound to it, like one chime followed by another.
I would say initially, you may or may not notice it to some extent as a part of the environment, but as the film continued, you would notice some emphasis on it during some moments, and you’d realize, oh, it’s that sound again, but in the scene, they were not visually showing what it is. It was meant to represent something, but I don’t necessarily know what the director’s intent was.
I think it was a good example of the director and sound designer communicating something which, in my opinion, I think that it was mostly communicating feeling.

I found myself super intrigued by, like, Oh, wow. What? What is that object, you know, yeah, you know, really, really interesting. Yeah,

TR in Conversation with Estevan:
Often in a film, there are these scenes they’re putting stuff in there and, they might represent something, or maybe they don’t, but they’re there for you to sort of take, right? And I don’t necessarily think about that with audio all the time. I feel like there’s another level of enjoyment, there’s another level of even just interest right in a film that you can gather audibly.

TR:
Imagine, you’re watching a film and the story isn’t really doing it for you, but the sound, now that sort of has it’s own thing going on.

Estevan:
Yeah, without a doubt.

The recent dune movies are for me okay. I’m fine with the story. I have a feeling the book is highly engaging.
I find the direction of the films to be effective. They’re lovely, but I’m honestly just so entranced by the score and sound design that I just really enjoy listening to it. And there are films where I will just buy it, because I really enjoy listening.

TR:
To be clear, Estevan is referring to both the music of the film or the sound track and the sound design.

Estevan:
You can buy the score for these films. You can’t buy the sound design, and I absolutely hate that. There are some films where the marriage between the two to me is so special, so beautiful, but you cannot gain access to the sound design. If I could listen to some films with zero dialog. There’s some films I only want to hear the sounds and the score. So sometimes I will struggle to ignore the dialog, but I’m really trying to hear the sound design and the score.

TR in Conversation with Estevan:
I wonder if there are any examples that we can maybe walk through to illustrate some of the sound design that goes on.

Estevan:
Sure, yeah.

Estevan:
So here we have Star Wars Episode Four from 1977 Walter Murch worked on this. He’s the one who was interviewed in conversations with Walter Murch.

This is when Vader comes in. A comment in YouTube says that Mark Hamill asked George whether or not this scene needed more exposition, this is supposedly hamills quote. Aren’t you going to cut to two characters saying, Who is that? That’s the Dark Lord of the Sith, because Hamill wasn’t sure that the audience would understand that this was a bad guy. And so this is a really interesting scene, because it’s the sound and the music that helps us understand that.

— Film clabboard “And Action”
— clip here…

TR:
George in this case is of course George Lucas, director of Star Wars.

George replied and I quote” Bruh, mind you’re business and watch this.”
Ok, maybe not a quote. But I bet he was thinking it.

Estevan:
George felt that yeah, just the sound in the visual would tell the audience enough of how to interpret it. What do you think you heard when Vader enters the screen? What are your thoughts?

TR in Conversation with Estevan:
I heard a laser type of sound thing going on there, even that breathing, Darth Vader’s breathing, it doesn’t sound like it’s friendly.
The footsteps I hear approaching
There was all that explosions going on, There was that gong sound, and then all those horns,
so something’s happened. And again, with the footsteps,
But then there was another tone that’s sort of underneath that where I’m feeling that, I was drawn to that.

Estevan:
That, tone underneath comes in when Vader is walking into the scene, and it’s a low rumble. And so films will often use, especially when in the theater use a low rumble for emphasis. In the beginning, we don’t feel a lot of low frequency rumble there, but as soon as Vader comes in, the lasers get quiet. We we have emphasis on his breathing, footsteps and a low rumble. And so that was helping to communicate a tone without the need for any additional dialog to tell you how to feel about it,

TR:
So just imagine instead of the low drone, the ominous footstepps, we replace all that with
— three stooges music
— squeaky

It’s a whole different vibe!

Estevan:
Yeah, yeah, absolutely. You wouldn’t necessarily know what to think.
You might even think like, oh, is Vader here to help, it could have been some other way to interpret it.

And I think that little rumble also really, really helps, because especially when you feel it physically, it just gets your attention.
So I think that’s a good classic scene. I believe Walter Murch was involved with that one. Okay, I can give you another example.

Here’s an interesting scene from punch drunk love, but I think it’s a little bit complicated. I enjoy it because it’s showing a bit of the range of how to work with musical score and sound. So in this scene, we’re going to hear an instrument called a harmonium, which is a type of organ instrument playing a melody. We’re going to hear a lot of environmental sounds, which is part of the sound design. And the sound design and the score become a little bit blurry at some point. Iin this scene, a man in a blue suit and a woman in red dress or leaving a restaurant and walking to a parking lot to go to their car at night.
Estevan” 58:46
A big 18 wheeler is driving by them and their breaks make a sound that follows the melody of the score that you hear. And I always found this to be a really fascinating type of decision, and it’s subtle, like, I don’t really think anyone watching this movie for the first time would have any reason to notice. I really enjoyed the score so that’s why I may have noticed it the first time.
I realized, oh the scene is communicating in this almost fantasy way that this 18 wheeler is making music due to the way it’s driving.

— Audio

Estevan”
It’s an interesting detail it’s like they made it sound like it’s in the background. It’s not a real instrument. They probably just sampled a truck, and then changed the pitches and played it on the keyboard.

TR in Conversation with Estevan:
Are there certain filmmakers that are known to do this more than others, or is it just sort of random that you notice this?

Estevan:
I don’t think there’s enough there doing it. I think the reason none of filmmakers may be doing it is either there’s budgetary constraints, time constraints, certain limits on that type of creative pursuit. The sort of filmmakers that have done it more consistently would be David Lynch who had the practice of doing that regularly in his films. And then I think often people working with Hans Zimmer. I don’t know if Hans Zimmer brings his own sound design team, but you hire Hans Zimmer for particular things, it’s going to be some sort of big project a lot of times. And so the sound design is often working with him.

The director of Blade Runner is the same directors is dune. Denis Villeneuve. I would say he also is often trying to merge sound design and score.

There’s other directors who’ve done it. They’re just doing it for one particular film and so it’s not obvious to me as to whether or not this is a theme in their work.

TR:
For those interested in learning more about sound design whether for access or just because Estevan has some suggestions.

Estevan”
There are other books about listening and about appreciating sound, which then connects to the topic of film or anything that deals with sound. I’m not going to recommend a book. But rather, I think if you look into any of the writings or teachings, including YouTube videos on individuals such as Pauline Oliveros, who promotes this idea that she calls deep listening. I think that helps a person understand a bit of the philosophy or way to listen. And I think that can inform any part of your life when it comes to the process of listening.

And then you have individuals such as John Cage, who also promoted a bit of the philosophy of us trying to understand or reconsider what music is, and what is this thing we call music. So if you look up any of their teachings or interviews in which they get to express their ideas, I think those two individuals provide a foundational questions about sound and music,.

TR in Conversation with Estevan:
What are some other careers for folks thinking about sound like, whether it be sound design, obviously musician composing, but are there other things that I might not be thinking of that sound design comes into play?

Estevan:
It should be acknowledged that AI is taking up a lot of the oxygen right now, which is a bit of a shame. But putting aside generative AI, there’s an industry of just creating sounds, creating samples, providing it to people. There are people out there who do field recording, who just go out to locations, record environments and share them or even sell them. And there’s individuals like me, and I think I’m hyper niche category where I’ve enjoyed the practice of just listening to recordings of places and things. So I think there’s a lot there when it comes to making sounds, crafting sounds for musicians, and even getting some music software, and then designing sounds in that music software, saving these presets, selling presets.

TR:
As we know all too well, AI is coming for every industry.
— Willhelm scream

Estevan
t’s definitely another conversation that I’ve spent some years discussing it, but I’m still trying to really muster up the energy to continue finding new words, yeah,

TR in Conversation with Estevan:
It sucks. There you go. There’s two words,

TR:
Big shout out to Estevan Carlos Benson. You can listen to some of his music and find out more about his projects at his website, EstevanCarlos.com.

Estevan:
spelled E, S, T, E, V, as in Victor, a, n, C, A, R, L, O, s.com.

TR in Conversation with Estevan:
People who take the time to come on to the podcast and they share their experiences, I gotta let you know…

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Hide the transcript

— Sound of water running from a sink, filling up an electric teapot.

TR:
One day, earlier this year, I’m in the middle of doing my thing… Whichever one of those things,
when I wanted a cup of tea.
As I waited for it to boil, I took out my phone.
This is one of the times when I’ll occasionally launch Twitter.
I don’t really spend much time on that platform like I used to.
And yes, I’m still calling it Twitter.

With a few minutes to spare, it’s a convenient distraction.
Swipe, swipe, swipe through the nonsense and then
I came across a tweet.
[Record Roz’s tweet]

Hmm! A young Blind person narrating AD?

That’s a story for Flipping the Script on Audio Description, right here on this podcast.

I’m Thomas Reid, your host and producer…. this is Reid My Mind Radio.
— Sound of teapot boiling

It’s tea time!

— Reid My Mind Radio Intro

Music: A calming ambient melody

TR
Act One

Why not?

TR:
After reading the tweet about Eleanor, the 12 year old Blind describer, I immediately reached out to the author of the tweet, Roz Charmer.

Roz:
I come from the UK. My pronouns are she her? I’m in my 60’s, I’ve got silver hair, and I’m wearing pink glasses. And I’m sitting in front of a microphone in a very tiny little booth at the moment.

TR:
Roz is an audio description professional.

Roz:
I started years ago at the National Theatre in London. And since then, I’ve sort of broadened my field to do things like circus and ballet and contemporary dance and opera. And I’m now really concentrating on working with small organizations where it seems that people don’t get the opportunity to hear about the new writing and the new performances.

My main focus is theater. I do do film and TV, but it tends to be for independents rather than for the big guys.

TR in Conversation with Roz:
And you write as well as narrate. Correct?

Roz:
Yes.

TR in Conversation with Roz:
So, tell me a little bit about how you met Eleanor.

Roz:
I work in a theater called the Old Vic, which is I think about the oldest Theatre in London at over years old.
The Old Vic does a Christmas show. It’s Charles Dickens Christmas Carol. And there is a character in it called Tiny Tim who is disabled in the story and in actual life. And they use three or four disabled children to play Tiny Tim. And Eleanor is one of those and has been I think she did three years running.

I met her at touch tours. And she is also a very ardent audio description consumer. So, she comes to a lot of shows that I’ve described. So, I got to know her through that.

Eleanor:
Hi, I’m Eleanor Stollery. My pronouns are she her, and I am 13 years old.

TR:
They grow so quickly! When I read the tweet, she was only!

First, a little background on Eleanor’s history with AD from a consumer point of view.

Eleanor:
So, when I listen to TV, there’s audio description on all the time. Mummy and daddy try and take me to as many theater shows as we can.
That are available and we can afford.

It’s a vital, vital thing for me, if there’s something that’s not audio described on TV, we will change over that. It’s, it’s sort of part of my lives now.

TR in conversation with Eleanor:
Do you by any chance, remember your first experience with audio description?

Eleanor:
Oh, gosh. I think my first experience was a Disney film. I lost my sight when I was about three or four. So, it was probably a year and a half into my sight loss.
So, it was a big change. But it’s a normal thing for me now.

I talked to my friends about it. And they say, Oh, Don’t you find it annoying. And I’m like, no, because it helps me so much.

TR in conversation with Eleanor:
You remember when you were three? You’re closer to three than I am.

Elanor laughs.

TR:
Eleanor wasn’t only interested in taking in film and theater.
By eight years old, she was performing in school plays and local drama clubs.

Eleanor:
I’ve always loved singing and acting and mimicking people’s voices and that kind of thing.

But there was an open audition for Christmas Carol, and I’d recently finished a regime of chemotherapy. And we had a quite a tough time. And my Mommy and Daddy were like, Why don’t we just do it?

TR in conversation with Eleanor and Tim:
Tim, dad, was that you who was like, Hey, let’s just go try it?

Tim
Yep, pretty much. Obviously, I can’t do anything without the approval of the other half Kelly. But we wanted to do something Just as a distraction from all that our daughter was going through and having to put up with.

I think we knew that Eleanor liked performing. We could get her even as a very young child to repeat words, which a child of her age wouldn’t necessarily know.
She would take direction very well. So perhaps it stemmed from that, we thought that she’d enjoy the experience.

So, we thought why not? Let’s go and see how an audition for a West End Show works.

To our complete amazement, she ended up getting the part and at such a prestigious theater.

Eleanor:
And I got a second audition.
It was an amazing experience, like you’d imagine it to be. And I got the part which was amazing.

I’ve done that for three years consecutively. And then after my first year, I got an agent. And she put me forward for some roles. And then I got a voice part in a cartoon called Milo, which is on Channel Five in the UK.

— Opening theme for “Milo”

Eleanor:
That kind of got me into the voiceover part of acting. Which then led to more auditions and just the crazy world of acting and performing.

— Scene from Milo:
Lark” (Voiced by Eleanor)
Then we saw how Lofty and Farmer tilly work as a team. So, we started to play together. And we won!

Music: A calming ambient melody

TR:
Act Two
Nothing About Us Without Us

TR:
Performing in the role of Tiny Tim for three years, professionally voice acting and auditioning, without even considering it consciously, Eleanor was perfectly positioning herself for an opportunity.

Roz:
We were doing a show called The witches. It’s based on a book by Roald Dahl. It’s a big musical and its child based. It’s a family show. And a lot of the people in it are children.

I was describing it with Andrew Holland, who is my colleague and who actually taught me everything I know.

We were going to do three performances of it. And one was going to be a school performance. So it was thought that we could use a child’s voice for the school’s performance.
I didn’t want to do a school performance without having the input of a blind child.

TR:
The importance of authentic casting can never be understated.
When it comes to audio description that not only applies to the voice of the narrator,
it also means Blind quality control or having a member of the target audience review the script.

David:
We’d had a production at the globe of a retelling of Cymbeline. It was in present day dress and the young people in the audience who are visually impaired are very keen to know what footwear the different characters were wearing.

So back to the fact that a different sort of Crillon, or father Gail gave a sense of status and Elizabethan times, it was evident that for these teenagers, the different trainers that were being worn gave a sense of status in the modern time. And that hadn’t been mentioned because it wasn’t a consideration of us to describe it.

We weren’t viewing the world through that sense of what was important in the costume to a young person.

TR:
That’s David Bellwood.

David:
My pronouns are he him. I’m something year old. Sis, white man, non-disabled. I think that’s an important thing to point out.

I am the head of access at the National Theatre, so I am responsible for the experience of Deaf, disabled and neurodivergent people who have contact with the National Theatre on any level. So that might be as members of staff, it might be as scholars or students. It might be visitors to our theaters, it might be actors, it might be people who watch our work online or in the cinema, it might be people who have popped into the foyer for a coffee or gone into our bookshop, or when to hire costumes. So there’s quite a range of points of contact. But the fundamental piece is try to make sure that we deliver something like equity to deaf, disabled neurodivergent people in all the work that we do.

Roz:
And I knew Eleanor and I knew she was a theater goer.

Eleanor:
And she said, Hey, I’m working on the witches. It’s a kids play, would you like to consult on the script? And I was like, oh, yeah, that’ll be great to help other kids. You can sit there as an adult and go, oh, a child might not understand that word. But you’ll never get as good as a child who sort of remembers not understanding those words? Or, you know, still doesn’t? There were a few words in that script, where I was like, what does that word mean? Even as a 12, 13 year old. And the youngest children there were eight. So you can imagine, there were a few words in there that I thought they wouldn’t understand. But to begin with, it was just a consulting role. And I was just going to help edit the script and work out what would make sense and what wouldn’t.

TR:
In 2020, Warner Brother’s released the film adaptation of The Witches starring Ann Hathaway.
Response from the disability community quickly followed due to the portrayal of the witches
as having split hands, or a limb difference having fewer than five fingers or toes.
Fortunately, the National Theater was taking a different approach.

David:
We had the script of the witches leant away from anything that could or potentially resemble disability, the audio description needed to parallel that care, and that attention to detail.

We have a young person, which provides us with a prism of what’s important. We have a young person who’s an incredibly talented actor and deliver operation. And we have a young person who understands best practice and audio description. So sort of notes from Roz going ;

Roz:
Well, why don’t we use Eleanor?

David:
So we did.

Eleanor and her father was like, Yes, we can do this gonna be great. It’s scary, but it’s exciting.

Roz:
So then it was really a question of…
Roz and David in time:
how are we going to do this?

David:
How would we do it?

— Music begins: A creschendoing swoosh culminates to … “Stop” Q-Tip “Breathe & Stop” followed by a fun, upbeat, high energy Hip Hop groove.

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— Sample: “Two”

If you want humans creating all aspects of your AD.
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In a black-and-white nutrition label, the text reads:
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Now let’s
— Sample: “Stop” Q-Tip
here and get back to the episode!
Music Ends
—
Music: A calming ambient melody

TR:
Act Three
Break it down!

TR:
Let’s break the narration process down into small manageable chunks.

— “Sample: Break”
Music begins: An exciting, upbeat electronic dance tune.

TR:
First, accessing the information or reading the script.

Eleanor:
I didn’t want to use one hand to read Braille, because that would take ages. Some parts in that show are very fast. And I had to read the line quite quickly. It had to be super speedy.

I used paper script of Braille, just so that I could be more fluent, and, faster and not knowing no other sort of sounds from the audio description box

So we did a couple practice runs before the actual show, where just a couple of people from the National Theatre and my mummy sat in the audience and just listened to it.
And they said, there was one point where the line went over an actor speaking maybe we need to cut that one down. So we cut the script down a lot, but there was still just over lines for me to read during that whole show.

TR:
Practice makes perfect. Eleanor did the first half in one sitting. Then the second and eventually did the entire performance once or twice on her own before the big day.

Eleanor:
Very, very stressful. But at the same time I was so happy that it all went well.

TR:
It’s live theater, stress comes with the job.

Roz:
When you’re doing live theater, it’s a very fluid piece of work, because you might get a very enthusiastic audience one night, and they’ll be clapping for a long time. And then you might get one that only claps for a short time. And then the actors on stage come in a bit quicker. We had children, and they were absolutely going wild. They were laughing, they were really having a great time. So sometimes, the actors had to sort of do a bit of filler work before they could actually say their line because it just wouldn’t be heard. And in that case, I had to give Eleanor some ad libs to do, so people wouldn’t feel that they were being left behind. And they knew what The rest of the audience were laughing at at the same time as they did.

TR:
You might think the way to handle these situations would be for Roz to serve as a secondary narrator covering the spontaneous description.

Roz:
no, no, I would just give her the words.

We talked about it beforehand. And I said there will be these pinch points. We knew where they were likely to be. And I said, I may just come in. And if I come in, I’m going to give you just a couple of words. And I’d like you to deliver it in the way I give it to you.

So if I said something like, his head drops off, she would do his head drops off. So it was exactly the same kind of delivery.

TR:
Timing changes may not always require new description, but rather a prompt to read a particular line.

Roz:
each line of description was given a letter. So the first line was A, the second line was B.

Because it’s live theater, somebody didn’t do something. . We just don’t say that line. But I had to give her the next line and tell her to jump D. Next one E

she had to react really quickly.

Music Ends
— Sample: “Break”

TR:
Imagine for a moment, you’re enjoying a live performance at a theater with audio description.
You’re really into this performance when all of a sudden, after the narrator provides a bit of description and the actors continue with their dialog, you hear;
— Newspaper paper rustling
— A person coughing
— sniffling and someone blowing their nose

TR:
Or Worse!

— Silly fart sound

TR:
You just can’t over state the importance of assuring the narrator closes the microphone in between their narration. I’m just saying! Silly Mischievous giggle)

Eleanor:
We worked out a way that I could read the script, and go out to the audience, because in a normal audio description scenario, the audio describer would have a fader, which would mean they would need another hand to move the switches and press buttons and stuff. But obviously, I needed to read Braille.

The amazing sound people at the National Theatre came up with a system where I used a foot pedal to Cue my voice and go out to the audience.

David:
See, this is the technical wizardry of the sound department.

They could make sure that the audience didn’t hear any click on click off, which often happens when mics are switched. So it did perform the same purpose as the fader

The pedal was vital, because Eleanor was receiving vocal cues from Roz , so if the fader was up, at any point, the audience would have heard Roz give a vocal cue. So the technical accuracy of Eleanor’s delivery, relied on the two of them working in tandem, to make sure that the audience never heard that vocal cue. But did hear the complete line of audio description. They actually nailed it. Absolutely. Nailed it. But it wasn’t no easy task.

Eleanor:
It was a great idea. And it really, really worked.

There were a lot of people helping us work out how to do this, which was great. We got a lot of support.

TR in conversation with David:
Yeh, I’d be curious to see if others adapt to the foot pedal approach. That’d be interesting. Because that’s what usually happens with access. Right? It becomes something that works for everyone.

David
yeah, I think that’s right.

You’ve made a good point. I will actually tomorrow make sure that they’re aware of it.

Music: A calming ambient melody

TR:
Act Four
The bigger picture!

TR:
Act Four – The Bigger Picture

TR:
Audio description is more than entertainment!

Meaning, there’s a bigger picture.

For example, Roz wasn’t just concerned about the performance,
she understood the importance in making sure that Eleanor wouldn’t become discouraged by the process.

That’s real support.

Roz:
She was so excited. And she was so enthusiastic and she was so enjoying the process. And she was very concentrated while we were working.

Eleanor:
The first half was the very upbeat, very fast half, and the second half it calmed down a little bit. So once I got through that first half, I was like, I’m okay, now. I’ve got this.

Roz:
She knows her abilities. And she knows how to communicate those abilities to people. She knew what she was doing.

I mean, she wants to do it again. And I would have absolutely no hesitation in working with her again, she was all smiles most of the time.

TR:
Focusing on the bigger picture helps you recognize the blurred line between who is giving and receiving support.

Roz:
It was a very much two way process, because she was learning from me, but I was learning from her. And we were both new to this. Neither of us had done it before.

I’ve worked with disabled describers. But I hadn’t worked with anybody who was blind before, as a describer. So we were feeling our way all the time.

I think what she was teaching me was, how she negotiated something for the first time and how she negotiated it herself. And what I was trying to do was to just listen, and find out where her fears were.

TR in Conversation with Roz:
why is this important? In general and to you?

Roz:
I do believe that we’ve a long way to go before we have authentic voices. People who actually represent the piece that is out there.

It’s important for me to be able to say this is something that is missing within the audio description field.

It was important to get a child because I think in the witches, I would have been the witch. I’m the old woman who is talking into your ear. And we wanted to actually represent the fact that it was a child story.
And it was told through a child’s mind. So even an adult I think listening would have had a different perspective.

It means now we’ve worked through a lot of the issues, we’ve solved a lot of the problems.

I’d like to be able to share it with people and let them know that this is possible. Anything is possible if you’ve got the will.

TR:
Of course, there’s no one solution for every situation.

We’re talking about creating an environment for success. That’s the blue print.

Roz:
Somebody’s got to be first, somebody’s got to trust. Somebody who is running a theater group has got to trust the fact that this is possible. And it’s going to give a good experience to the audience.

#TR
Again, the bigger picture.

Tim
With live theater, we very rarely get audio described performances. They are few and far between. Which is a sad reality.

TR:
And while she’s just getting started bringing some of that access to the community, as far as we can tell,
Eleanor is the first Blind person to narrate a live theatrical performance in the UK.

Roz:
It’s a small community. And I think we would have heard whether somebody had done it live. to actually sit in a box, and do that description and deliver it in the more traditional way, really, which is people with headsets sitting in an audience, and you in a box somewhere, overlooking the stage, with your script in front of you and delivering at that moment. I haven’t heard anybody who had done that, let alone a 12 year old

TR in conversation with David:
Have you, yourself, or anyone there at the theater get any direct feedback?

David:
Really important in this sort of role is not to expect gratitude. Access is a civil right. And if we ask of disabled people to be grateful, I feel that there’s a power dynamic in there, which is really quite unhealthy. It’s important, we don’t go looking for praise.

So the feedback came in over time, it was overwhelmingly positive, which is absolutely fantastic. And just proved to us the validity of it, but also meant that we could speak directly to Eleanor and say, Look at what you succeeded, which is really important. And we’re still talking about that feedback and the response from those young people today.

TR in conversation with Eleanor:
What does that mean to you? The fact that there are other blind students who get to hear a blind Narrator doing that? Does that mean anything to you?

Eleanor:
It means so much to me, because I know that if that was me experiencing a visually impaired audio describer describing that show, it would be amazing.

I just hope, maybe I brought a nice first experience of the theater to some of those children.

TR in conversation with Eleanor:
When you say it would have been amazing for you to experience, what would that have meant for you?

Eleanor:
I find it quite relatable, maybe there was some kids that will be like, oh, gosh, I wouldn’t be able to do that. But I like that kind of thing. So if I’d been in that situation sitting there listening to it, I could think, Hey, I could do that, maybe I could do that one day. It’s possible.

TR in conversation with Eleanor:
Absolutely prove it’s more than possible. It is a thing.

Do you have any Blind or visually impaired mentors ? Whether you know them personally or not? Are there people that you can look to that you say, Okay, this is a path for me.

Eleanor:
There aren’t that many out there that sort of make themselves known that they’re just kind of in the background, which is great, really, because it’s amazing to me In a visually impaired actress or actor, but at the same time, maybe you don’t want all that fame.

Tim:
There was a film we watched recently on Netflix.

Eleanor:
it was a series, All the Light We Cannot See. That was amazing.

Tim
Aria Libertti

Eleanor:
That was really good!

TR:
The mini series which debuted on Netflix, received wide recognition for authentic casting for the role of
Marie Laure LeBlanc played by Aria Mia Loberti and Nell Sutton both of whom are Blind.

And y’all know there’s a strong Reid My Mind Radio Family connection here right?

Our brother Joe Strechay was one of the producers for the Netflix project.
In general, Joe’s doing that work increasing disability representation in front and behind screen.

The Audio Description was produced by the folks from IDC with narration
by Fern Lulham, a Blind narrator.

P.S. I believe she’s in the UK.

(Whispering….) You should reach out to Eleanor…. I’m just saying.

Music begins: A bright, synth intro leading into a hopeful inspirational beat.

TR in conversation with Eleanor:
Maybe like you said, some of the younger folks will be able to see you guys and say, hey, yeah, this is possible.

Eleanor:
Yeah, I really hope so. That’s what was kind of powering me through when I got to those harder parts of the show. I thought I hope this is helping others.

TR:
There it is, the big picture!

While I recognize the importance of connecting the dots to the bigger picture and have a lot more to say about that, I’ll save that for another time.

Let’s celebrate Eleanor’s success and all of the love and support that was poured into this young lady.
Imagine what we can do if that was the standard approach to access.

Access is for consumers and creators!

Big shout out to Roz Charmer, David Bellwood, Tim and the youngest to do it… Eleanor Stolery. You are all official members of the Reid My Mind Radio family!

— Airhorn

TR:
If you’re interested in following Eleanor, her social media manager and security has the details

Tim:
Eleanors Voice on Facebook
@ERStollery on Twitter and Instagram

TR:
And you can chat more with Roz.

Roz
@ELSIEBIADS I will spell that for you E L S I E B I A DS
But also it’s ross.charmers@gmail.com.

TR:
You know, it’s a lot of work producing this podcast. But it means a lot to me and I hope to you too.

I appreciate you all and hope you continue rocking with Reid My Mind Radio, available wherever you get your podcasts.

Transcripts and more are over at ReidMyMind.com.

There’s only one way to get there no matter who you are.
King or Queen, Duke or Dutchess, you have to spell it right!
That’s R to the E, I… D!
— “D, and that’s me in the place to be!”, Slick Rick

Like my last name.

— Reid My Mind Radio Outro

Peace.

Hide the transcript

TR:
Hosting and producing a podcast alone, requires taking on multiple roles.
Ring master, assuring everyone in the audience is aware and entertained. Knowing when to bring out the next act, do something silly to make an audience member giggle a bit or call in the clowns.

We juggle all sorts of responsibilities, walk a fine line when picking and choosing what to include or leave out of an episode.
Hopefully, we make it look easy so others can simply enjoy themselves and walk away feeling informed, uplifted, encouraged with a smile on their face.
With that said, there’s only one way to kick off this first episode of our Flipping the Script on Audio Description season.

Brian:
ladies and gentlemen children of all ages. I’m Brian Velazquez from Omnium circus. We would like to welcome you and your family to Reid My Mind Radio!

Now here’s your host Thomas Reid!

TR:
(Energetically)
See, now that’s how you do it baby! Let’s go!

Audio Reid My Mind Theme Music

TR:
It was summer, 2023 and I’m at an event at the Lighthouse in New York city. It was my first time there. I was in conversation with someone when soon after a young gentleman introduced himself to me.

Brian:
My name is Brian Velasquez. I am the Outreach Coordinator, with Omnium a bold new circus.

TR:
He went on to tell me a little about the circus when I quickly realized I not only heard of them but I wanted them on the podcast. They’re a perfect fit.

Omnium not only provides an accessible experience to the children of all ages, but many of the acts include disabled performers.

TR in Conversation with Brian:
Tell me a little bit about how you came to learn about and work with Omnium circus.

Brian:
. Growing up, I used to love going to the circus when I was little. But as with all things I grew out of it. Long and behold I start my first year of college.
I’ve always wanted to be a Braille teacher, that was my mind set since I was around so many Braille teachers growing up.

TR:
Soon after beginning his course work in education, Brian realized he really wasn’t interested in being a teacher. So he moved from the school of education and discovered therapeutic recreation.

Brian:
Continued with that work with geriatrics. Graduated with a degree in therapeutic rec in 2015.

TR:
Soon after, Brian began working at Coney Island Hospital.

— “Where Brooklyn at…” Notorious BIG

Brian:
I implemented a program with the residents where we learned about the loading and unloading of the Ringling Brothers and Barnum Bailey Circus train. So we watched a video on that we did some threading, we answered questions, we discussed it. And a little sparked started to form.

TR:
It wasn’t the first time Brian used the circus as a way to facilitate therapy in his work.
I don’t think he ever so called “grew out” of his love for the circus. And why should he?

Brian:
Little by little something begins to draw me back.
I come across Lisa Lewis because I look up tickets to go to the Big Apple Circus in New York City.
I saw they needed a volunteer for circus of the senses. I was like why not? It wasn’t gonna affect work. So I connected with Lisa B. Lewis.
And the rest is history.

Lisa:
My name is Lisa Lewis and I am the founder and executive director of Omnium circus. I am five foot tall, I have dark brown hair, relatively pale skin, red glasses. Generally I’m wearing red lipstick. My pronouns are she and her.

TR:
As it turns out, these two, Brian and Lisa actually have a history together.

Lisa:
Brian was eight years old and came to circus of the senses. He loved it. He came every year. I know Brian, I know his classmates, I knew his teachers. We’ve all stayed very good friends.
I just adore Brian. He’s so smart. His insights are so interesting. I’m a big, big, big, big, big Brian fan.

So fast forward a bunch of years. And Brian wanted to come and be a part of the circus.
At that time, I was still with Big Apple. So I said, Why don’t you come Be Our Guest ringmaster for circus of the senses.

TR:
The Big Apple Circus which began in 1977 is a one ring circus mostly residential to New York City. Community involvement and outreach has always been a part of their philosophy.

Circus of the senses was the Big Apple Circus outreach to children with disabilities.

Lisa:
So they would give away tickets to kids with disabilities. And we provided audio description, American Sign Language interpreters. And that really kind of clicked to listen to people to realize their enjoyment to know that these people wanted to love the circus just as much as everybody else wants to love the circus. And a simple access was all that’s needed to be able to include them in this popular entertainment. And they only got it once a season same now with Broadway shows. If you’re deaf and you want to see an interpreted show, you only get one shot at it. To me, that’s just not right. I always thought how, how could we make this so that anybody can come to any show?

TR:
That question would ultimately lead to the creation of Omnium Circus.

Lisa:
I eventually ran the program. I eventually split it off so that we had one show for people for whom the access of audio description and American Sign Language was beneficial and Another one for people with sensory needs, and autism. So we created two different programs.

And then finally, by the time the pandemic had hit, and everybody was kind of sitting around I thought,? could we create a show that not only was accessible to everybody, at any show?

TR:
Looking even further at the make up of the circus, Lisa noticed other disparities.

Lisa:
I live in New York City. This is not a monochromatic place. This is an incredibly diverse and vibrant community. And we thrive for our diversity, because we each have so much to offer.

Could we bring that to the ring? So that was part of what I was thinking, Could we do that?

TR:
Lisa wanted to bring all of that to the ring.

But this was during the pandemic, so Lisa had to use a different approach.

Lisa:
We made a virtual version.

we pull together a group of artists from all over the world from all different abilities to really showcase the beauty of the human spirit. And we collaborated with an organization in New York, called Disability unite. And we created a platform online that would provide for different channels of simultaneous access.

TR:
That included audio description, captions, Spanish language translation…

Lisa:
As a person who signs I got really tired of looking to the side to watch the interpreter and missing all the action. To me, that was annoying and a circus. So I wanted it integrated, I wanted the person who was signing a, to be deaf and b, to make sure that it was integrated and part of the action.

. So you’re still enjoying the same show at the same level. That’s equity. Then we put it out. Let’s just see what happens. And we ended up getting almost 30,000 people watching it in 16 states and five countries.
That gave us the energy to say, Okay, let’s see what we got to do to make this a reality.

TR:
this performance called “A Celebration of Diversity” is still available for purchase on Eventbrite. I’ll link you to it directly on this episode’s blog post at ReidMyMind.com.

TR in conversation with Lisa:
So how big is your organization?

Lisa:
Our whole organization is actually not that big.

Twenty five percent of our performers have disabilities. Forty percent of our overall organization have disabilities. The performers are obviously the largest part of our company.

Outside of performers There are maybe eight of us. Nine. Well, we’re small and mighty.

TR in Conversation with Brian:
What do you do as an outreach coordinator?

Brian:
I reach out to organizations, such as schools, community centers, NFB, ACB

It is a little scary at first, especially reaching out to schools, it’s a little daunting, but I’m starting to getting used to that more. Most people. They’re like, Oh, wow, send me information.

I work remotely.

we all work as a team when it comes to outreach. We have someone that does flyers for us, we have someone that may send a couple of emails for us to help out. So all the work is spread out evenly so we can all work together as a team and do the best we can to get people in seats.

— Music Begins Quarter note hi hat open to a slow bass heavy groove.

TR:
The best way to get people in the seats is to have great performers.

Lisa:
Some of the acts in the show, especially this year are just incredible.

We have a young woman who plays our lead, who is the world’s fastest juggler. Our choreographer and onsite director who also does a crossbow act just set the Guinness Book of World Records, because he shot a crossbow looking into a mirror over his right shoulder 25 feet to hit an apple off the top of his wife’s head.

TR in conversation with Lisa:
Oh my god. How long were they married?

Lisa:
They’re still married!

TR in conversation with Lisa:
I’m gonna ask my wife after this is done.

Lisa & TR Laugh!

Lisa:
We have a dancer who’s a seven time NCAA gymnastics champion, who also is a wheelchair user, who does a beautiful, beautiful acrobatic dance.

We have a gorgeous aerialist, who also came up through the world of gymnastics and does this beautiful aerial silks duet with her husband.

Brian:
It’s done by Miss Chandrika Bower and Dominic Bower. And the husband plays the trombone during part of the act and it is just such a beautiful act. You see the romance? You see the passion.

TR in Conversation with Brian:
He’s in the air playing trombone? Oh my gosh!

Lisa:
It’s just this gorgeous love story. She happened to have been born without legs.

Brian:
We have a female ringmaster. Danette Shepard Vaughan. African American. She is phenomenal.

Lisa:
She’s got this gorgeous, Jazzy singing voice and her partner. We call the character of the poet who is a full dancer. He is death and he performs the entire show in ASL.

Brian:
And we have another act that I like is the King Charles troupe?
I don’t know if you’re familiar with them?

TR in Conversation with Brian:
Wait, are they on the unicycles?

Brian:
Yes, they are.

TR
I remember seeing this talented group who perform these amazing basketball acrobatic stunts on unicycles. I first saw them when my oldest daughter was only about two or three. They performed with the UniverSoul Circus. We went at least twice. During one performance, I actually got picked from the audience to go into the ring and dance with ReRun from the show What’s Happening. You know, Roger, Dee, Dwayne? Shirley from the diner?

— Transition – Theme music from “What’s Happening”

TR in conversation with Lisa:
I’m really curious. How do you go about finding these acts?

Lisa:
We have the world’s most amazing artistic director. His name is Noe Espana. He has sixth generation fifth generation circus. His wife is sixth or seventh sixth generation circus. His kids are now Seventh Generation circus. And they know everybody, Noe finds our acts. He creates the shows. He writes the shows. He puts everything together. He is a creative genius. Wow. Okay. And we take applications, although, in all fairness, you gotta be good. (Laughs) Be really good. Noe’s picky.

TR in Conversation with Lisa:
Yeh, so you’re getting people walking in off the street like “Hey, I want to apply for the circus?”

TR:
Duh! I know that’s not the case.
Obviously circus performers require a lot of skill that come from years of practice and experience. Many begin perfecting their acts from childhood.

Lisa’s love for the circus also began as a child, but it wasn’t until she attended college where she came across the opportunity to get involved.

Lisa:
One of my roommates was trying to teach me how to juggle. I was a miserable failure. But I was in the theater department and Ringling Brothers had just posted an audition for clown College.

She goes, Why don’t you go try out this audition, at least maybe you’ll learn to juggle. So I went to the audition. And I fell in love.
I felt like yes, this is where I belong.
I was one of 50 students out of a pool of over 2000 [that were accepted that particular year.]
And in 1986, I went to Ringling Brothers and Barnum and Bailey circus clown College, and my journey began.

TR:
In addition to clown college, Lisa did finish her degree and went on to get a Masters in Circus history.

Lisa:
Circus is an art form and always has been an art form. That can include so many people, because it’s not a language based art form. It’s not an intellect based art form. It’s a heart. It’s a feeling. It’s a visceral enjoyment. And so it can bring all kinds of communities together, and has been since the beginning of time.

TR:
That ability to bring people together made it an effective way to impact society.

(Lisa:
the electric light bulb was introduced in a circus, because everyone was afraid of it. So the circus was the first to light with electric light bulbs to show everyone that that was okay.

Barnum introduced the horseless carriage in a circus. Cars started becoming popular. So it’s a really wonderful way of reaching large groups of people.

I love it for its ability to include. I love it for its ability to entertain. I love it for its ability to showcase the best of the best. It’s like watching the Olympics. You see the best of the best people who’ve spent their lives for generations dedicated to learning a specific art form and you see what amazing things the human body can accomplish all bodies, any shapes, any sizes, anything. The amazing accomplishments of the human spirit.

TR in conversation with Lisa:
What’s the relationship between freak shows and circus?
Lisa 50
I’m actually really glad you asked that question.

So back in time, humanity was a lot less advanced. There were different water fountains, there were different bathrooms. We weren’t real nice to each other, to say the least,
And one of those not very nice things. Concerned persons with disabilities. They were thrown in institutions, they were drowned. They were killed. They were hidden away. They were not given respect as individuals.

TR
As awful as that sounds, Lisa points out a very real and practical side.

Lisa:
So the freak show, quote, unquote, at that time, provided viable employment when people couldn’t get jobs. No one would hire you if you had a disability. The Circus provided employment, you could buy a house you could raise your family, they had a life they had a community to become involved with.
the circus created a very positive space within a very negative paradigm.
So we’re reclaiming the paradigm, but not showing people because of what makes them different than 75% of the world. But what makes them unique and special and their incredible talent and artistry to lift them up. So that the world can see that we all are people and inside each one of us is a beautiful gift, regardless of the body to which you are born or the skin you are in.

TR:
Lisa went on to work for Ringling Brothers, freelanced as a clown and ended up working in the Clown Care Unit, an outreach program of the Big Apple Circus.
Clown Care Clown Doctors are specially selected professional performers who are trained to work in the sensitive hospital environment. Using minimal make-up, evocative costumes, juggling, comedy, magic and music these “clown doctors” help ease the stress of illness and aid in a patients’ healing.
In pairs they make “ Clown Rounds” visiting children throughout the hospital from bedside to all sorts of patient encounters.

Meet Lisa’s former clown doctor partner, Liz Bolick.

Liz:
I go by she her hers pronouns. I am six feet tall, with reddish brown hair to my shoulders a little bit curly. I have an oval face, I’m a Caucasian woman kind of shapely.

Liz:
I had worked with the Big Apple Circus for many, many years in New York City as a performer, and as a clown doctor in the clown care unit, working with their specialty programs with hospital clowning. And then I started doing pre show for the circus of the senses,.

Lisa Lewis approached me and asked me if I’d be interested in being an audio describer. I said, Sure. That sounds cool. How do you do that?

TR in conversation with Liz:
Oh my goodness.
I used to go to New York Hospital. On the east side?
I used to love the clowns. I used to have such a good time.

Liz

How old were you?

TR in Conversation with Liz:
I was a grown ass man.
The clowns and I would connect because I’m hysterical. And they’re like this is the only person who really seems to be enjoying this.

Liz:
I was at New York Hospital. for 20 years doing it at New York Hospital, Columbia Presbyterian. Then I went out to Einstein in the Bronx. Your doctor sneakers, that was me.

TR in conversation with Liz:
Wow. Okay.

Liz 24
you probably saw me play. Crazy high top sneakers on. That’s how kids remembered me buy my shoes
TR in conversation with Liz:
I would look forward to go just to see the clowns.

Liz:
Well, it makes me happy that we made a difference in that in those moments for you. Right.

TR in conversation with Liz:
Absolutely.
I think for other parents, it was just a little levity.
It was really nice.

Liz:
Great for the staff to sometimes a little joy. It just breaks people out of their sorrow or their stress for five seconds. Yeah. And it makes a difference. And so I’m blessed to have done it.

TR:
To continue providing access to joy, Lisa signed Liz up for a two week audio description course at the Theater Development Fund.

In addition to AD training, TDF offers Accessibility Programs that provide a membership service for theatregoers with disabilities that require some form of access including wheelchair seating, captions, ASL and audio description. You can check them out at TDF.org.

Liz:
I found it fascinating. And then one day, she said, Alright, jump in. I said You mean today.

TR:
Just like making clown doctor rounds, at Omnium, audio description is done in pairs.

Liz was paired with Carl Anthony Tramon.

(Liz:
I was absolutely nervous. But she had Carl there as the audio describer, who is brilliant and has done this for years and years and years. And she said, just jump in and work with Carl.

it was one of the best things I ever did.

I remember sitting next to Carl, and I was sweating. I was so scared. And I turned to Carl and I said, Do you have any advice for me, and he turned to me with this big smile on his face and said, just talk like it’s a conversation. So imagine we’re kids seeing the circus for the first time. And let’s describe what we see and have fun.

I had this great experience. And I got to work with a master. Of course. Generally, you don’t get to work as a team. But I think I was extremely lucky that not only did I get placed with a partner, my first experience, but Carl Tramon, was that partner.

TR:
Unfortunately, Carl was not available for this interview but brother, if you’re listening,
I’m extending an open invitation to you to come on the podcast
and share your experience with audio description.

Although Liz was new to AD, the skills she gained as a clown doctor were perfect for describing a live circus.
Liz:
It makes you very present. And you have to be in the moment. And there’s nothing more in the moment than audio description,

You really have to be aware of what’s happening right in that second.

TR:
Being prepared to respond quickly to something unexpected is crucial in live description. However, there’s still a lot of preparation that goes into the role.

Liz:
I’m somebody that likes a lot of rehearsal and likes to feel really prepared. So I’m usually over prepared.

I get to know the individual acts, I like to look up their websites know what skills they’re doing, what’s a history of their family? How do you pronounce their name? If they’re doing a Diablo act? What’s the history of that Diablo? That’s a Chinese yo, yo, what are the terms for it? I’ll watch YouTube videos of how to do Diablo and it’ll give me all these terms.

TR:
Those unfamiliar with the process of AD are surprised by the amount of research and preparation required to write effective description. Even when it appears to be spontaneous.

And of course, whenever possible, go to the source.

Liz:
I like to speak to the artists directly if I can.

I’m lucky because I’ve been part of circus for so many years that I understand a lot of the acts.

What is the seer real? What is the Hulu back? What are the aerialists? What’s a tight rope? What’s a high wire? I know a lot of what these acts are, but describing them to someone who’s never seen them was the trick. So I needed to increase my vocabulary, but also make it down to earth simplistic and really describe what the actual physical movements of the body and the person are not necessarily technical terms.

So it’s like preparing for a role in the theater and then you have to throw it away and be in the moment.

TR:
Liz, who is also a costume designer and producer, brings all of that plus her extensive knowledge and experience as a circus performer to AD. The combination of her and Carl who she says is great at describing the technical enables her to sprinkle interesting facts about other details.

Liz:
So I can talk about the sparkling outfits and what they’re made of, I can talk about the Top Hats and the colors of the lights changing from a design point of view, a costume point of view, and you don’t always have time for all of that. So I also do a big prep, I also have quite a bit of pre show available that I rewrite in advance, so that if kids come 15 minutes early, and if technically have time in the theater, I can give a lot of background on each and every act, or the biggest moments, including costumes and descriptions of the people in the show that you may not have time for in the moment. Because circus happens really fast.

TR:
This sounds like the approach heard in sports. Play by play commentator paired with another who provides interesting facts and adds color to the broadcast.

Liz:
For me, it’s the essence of what’s happening emotionally, for the audience, because it helps bring them into the moment of the danger of the excitement and the anticipation of the moment that maybe they’re going to miss or maybe they’re going to make it. Now those things I think innately are in the timing and the tenor of my voice. I think it makes a better show.

I’ll go like (Starts in a whisper and moves to louder more excited voice) “And now, walking up the thing, and the thing and they turn and they flip and they go!”

TR in conversation with Liz:
And that’s such a big difference from standard audio description for a film or a Broadway production. Have you ever done any of those?

Liz:
I’m starting to really

TR in conversation with Liz:
Okay, So what’s the difference like for you? Because it’s less emoting.

Liz:
First, that was shocking. I couldn’t even speak. Like, I’m sitting there, I say, and he moves on, and the lights come up, and then they talked for like, 30 minutes. It was so weird for me. I’m used to talking non stop because you can’t talk over the dialog, right.
So then you kind of have to follow a script. But if I’m following a script, I’m not in the moment as much.

TR:
Being in the moment never replaces the need for preparation.

Liz:
I would watch the videos over and over and over again, if I get my hands on them. I go to a dress rehearsal , and then I’ll go to a show. So there’s a ton of prep.

TR:
This is a public service announcement!

If we do the math and calculate the hourly rate based on the actual amount of time put into preparing and describing live theater, well, let’s just say this group is highly under paid.

Automation and artificial intelligence isn’t the way to resolve that rather it’s changing the way we think about access.

That concludes our public service announcement.

Liz:
I would try to talk to the producers in the playwrights and the actors, I still like to ask an actor how they want to be called.
How do they want to be described not necessarily how I would see them.

Different people from all races and cultures want to be described differently.

TR in conversation with Liz:
Is it easier within the circus to get access then in Broadway or Off Broadway plays?

Liz:
It’s easier for me in the circus because generally like Omnium I’ve been with them for so many years. I know a lot of people, these are my friends. I’m doing one show for a whole season.

TR:
Outside of Omnium, Liz doesn’t always have the opportunity or permission to directly speak with the performers. But, Liz is spunky, she was a clown after all!

Liz:
I’ll just show up grab people. While they’re offstage, I’ll just show up and work my way and being sweet and funny. That always works. Kindness goes a long way. I think most people feel happy that you’re asking.

TR in conversation with Liz:
It’s a combination of probably parents and children. Who are you describing for in your mind?

Liz:
More like family audiences. I think the good thing about the circus is that anyone in that room feels like they’re five years old. First of all, but you can’t talk down to people and especially children, like children are a lot smarter and hipper than anything. So even when I’m working with a two year old, I’m not treating them like a baby.
Fun and energetic but not too super technical.

TR in conversation with Liz:
do you have any favorite acts that stick out to you that you really like to describe?

Liz:
Well, I love to describe the clown acts, because I’m a clown myself. So I love to describe the comic timing.

I like to add narrative to a silent comedy routine. is really fun because I’m a silent comedian, physical comedian.

TR in conversation with Liz:
What type of things are you describing?

Liz:
Well, like their first facial expressions, like if you have a comedy team, like we have dick and Tiffany, Monday and Riley in the show, I’ve known them their whole lives. So like, take a look over at her she’ll kind of flip her head. And it’d be like, she’s not super happy. He better watch out. She’s gonna smack him on. Oops, she did. She smacked him on the butt.

Liz:
there’s like silly beats that happened.

TR:
With two describers, Liz and Carl can bounce off one another to really bring out the emotion of what’s taking place visually.

Liz:
He’ll be like, Oh, no, he didn’t. And I go, Oh, yes, he did. Like, well, we get into like a comedy routine about it. We’ll do it together.

We have a pretty good trading off back and forth repartee that goes on, and just happens naturally.
And we’re lucky because we can both improvise really? Well. He’s a great actor, singer, dancer, Director. So we’re both good at improvising. And I think we’re both aware of each other’s strengths, I would say. Plus, we would do the same show over and over, especially at the very beginning, we did the same show, like for an entire season. So then you have your rhythm and beats and we’re kind of rehearsed in a way we kind of go oh, we kind of know each other’s parts a little bit. That’s

TR in conversation with Liz:
That’s like a show within the show.

TR:
The circus is about two hours with a 15 minute intermission. I can imagine it really helps to have multiple describers working together.

Omnium also offers one hour special events for schools. Exposing even more children to the joys of the circus.

In fact, during some of the special events, some of these children may not realize it, but the ring master was once in their seat.

Brian:
. Ladies and gentleman now.
Um, woof. My neighbors are probably like, What the heck is he doing?

I’ve been really learning about circus.

The ring masters used to use these booming voices because back in the day, there was no microphones.
There was a term called Barker.

Hurry, hurry, hurry, step right up, step right up. Hurry, hurry. Not sure if it was the same concept as the ringmaster. But it was kind of similar, but then the ringmaster wouldn’t have a mic neither. So they would have to project their voice and otherwise, you wouldn’t hear anything.

So that’s why there’s been a tradition of keeping the voice, they had to use those big, loud heavy duty. Voice commands.

TR:
That’s right, Brian has served as ring master during some of these events, which sometimes offer open audio description.

TR in Conversation with Brian:
So while you ring mastering Do you listen to it as well.

Brian:
Oh, my goodness, good question.
I was able to follow through with the audio description cues. That helped me a lot immensely when it came to, you know, okay. It’s time for me to say this, or Okay, I’m gonna do this now.

TR:
It’s always important to remind folks that access is not just about consumption. Disabled folks are not only participants, but we are makers of art, content, technology, accessibility and more. Removing this perspective of the conversation continues to leave us out of all sorts of spaces.

So what other access is available at Omnium?

Brian:
we have open ASL in the show. You’re gonna see everything that’s said in the show. What the ringmaster is saying everything. What the Ringmasters singing all that you you’ll be able to see it because there is live open ASL interpretation at the show.

sensory friendly, very important. For those who are neurodiverse who may be sensitive to sound or light. The house lights are not completely off. And the sound decibels
at a decibel where it’s suitable for everyone.

We have a common area with little activities you can do like markers or drawing
you’re gonna have your few people that may be a little overwhelmed that need a break. And that’s okay.

TR:
Of course that includes wheel chair access and closed captions wherever possible.
Brian
we want it to be as inclusive as possible for all, that’s why we are America’s first comprehensively inclusive circus.

TR:
Big shout out to Brian Velasquez, Lisa Lewis and Liz Bolick, you’re each official members of the Reid My Mind Radio Family.

I don’t care who you are, if you’re hearing or reading this episode, Omnium is for you. Take your children, grand children, students, athletes … you can always take me, I’m a forever five year old.

Honestly, I wanted to get out to see them when they were in New York this year but unfortunately scheduling didn’t workout. But I will get there and hope you do the same.

For the current schedule and links to social media visit OmniumCircus.org.

Another Public service announcement If you’re not registered to vote, please do so.
We’re in some serious times and I hope and encourage you all to get out there and vote. In person or absentee mail in, I really don’t care, just make it happen.

I appreciate you rocking with Reid My Mind Radio wherever you get podcasts. We have transcripts and more at ReidMyMind.com.

It’s come to my attention that some don’t think I spell it enough… seriously!
You got to spell it right, that’s R to the E I D!
— Sample (“D! And that’s me in the place to be.” Slick Rick)

Like my last name!
— Reid My Mind Radio outro
Peace!

Hide the transcript

Music begins
THOMAS: Welcome to the Blind-Centered Audio Description Chats. These are the edited recordings of the Blind-Centered Audio Description Live Chats!
CHERYL: The live is the most fun part! We get together, we start with a question, and then we invite up anybody from the audience who wants to come and chat with us, agree, disagree, shed light on something that we hadn’t thought about before, which is Nefertiti’s favorite. [electric whoosh]
NEFERTITI: I’m Nefertiti Matos Olivares, and I’m a bilingual professional voiceover artist who specializes in audio description narration! I’m also a fervent cultural access advocate and a community organizer.
CHERYL: I’m Cheryl Green, an access artist, audio describer and captioner.
THOMAS: And I’m Thomas Reid, host and producer Reid My Mind Radio, voice artist, audio description narrator, consultant, and advocate.
[smartphone selection beeps]
CHERYL: Recording now!

NEFERTITI: Well, hello. This is Nefertiti Matos Olivares, and this is our first time that we’re doing a bit of a hybrid session and the first time we are presenting some content, sort of cross-pollinating, some work that we do with the Blind-Centered Audio Description Chat series that Cheryl Green, Thomas Reid, and I have been collectively working on for a while now, and also, the work that we do by way of the Social Audio Description Collective, or SADC, where we actually create and carefully craft, from the writing to the blind QC, the narration, the sound design, all of it, some culturally competent audio description in English and Spanish and other languages. So, if you don’t know about SADC, check us out. We are the Social Audio Description Collective. And if you don’t know about our previous offerings at the Blind-Centered Audio Description Chat series, you can check that out too by way of Thomas Reid’s Reid My Mind Radio. That’s all R to the E I D, like his last name, y’all!
THOMAS: [chuckles]
NEFERTITI: On his podcast feed as well. Wow. I am here, and I am happy to be here. And we have Thomas with us. We have Cheryl with us. We have Oliver Baker, the writer of the audio description for the two films that we will be watching and listening to today. And we have Carmen, Carmen Papalia with us.
THOMAS: So, we’re gonna show two films, and then we’re gonna talk to Carmen about the films, talk a little bit about what led into creating the films, talk a little bit about the AD, and we wanna hear from y’all too. So if there’s questions about the films that you wanna ask Carmen, you’ll have an opportunity to do that, or if you wanna ask or make a comment on the audio description, you can do that too.

Editors Note:
THOMAS: Quick note, we’re not including the audio of the film in this episode, however, you can go on over to this episode’s blog post on ReidMyMind.com and I’ll link you there.
Then come back and enjoy the conversation with both film maker and AD production team.

Ok, here we go, back to the episode!!

THOMAS: So, I think it’s time to welcome Carmen Papalia to the Zoom room.
NEFERTITI: [imitates air horn]
CARMEN: [chuckles]
THOMAS: And maybe Carmen, if you wanna introduce yourself, tell folks who you are, tell us a little bit about who you are and what you do.
CARMEN: Yeah, for sure. It’s Carmen speaking. I’m calling in from the stolen land of the Musqueam, Squamish, and Tsleil-Waututh people, colonially known as Vancouver. I’m in my room right now. I’m, yeah, I’m wearing maybe one of the same caps as in the film, a brown sort of wool cap, and a colorful button shirt with short sleeves today. I’m not sure which colors, unfortunately!
THOMAS: [chuckles]
CARMEN: Sorry. But know that they are vibrant and festive, I call myself a non-visual artist. I make mostly participatory projects. I do performance, installation. I do curating as well. And this project, Impaired, is a co-production and collaboration with my brother Antonio. And he’s not able to be here today ‘cause he’s sick, unfortunately. But yeah, it’s been a joy to work with him on this project. He’s also a macro photographer, too. So, I can talk a little bit about the work that we did with the Social Audio Description Collective around the macro photos as well. But this film series is something that we got some COVID-era grant funding for by the Canada Council. And the films were recently just in an exhibition in Zurich. It was an exhibition called Interdependencies about various forms of care. And these films were shown in a functional grow room that my brother designed and built. Well, he had help building it. The production team at the museum was amazing and was able to put everything together to our specs. It was like a replica of the grow room that we have here in Vancouver, but it was made to be wheelchair accessible for the exhibition. And it was like a presentation space for these videos and as well as my brother’s macro photos of the cannabis life cycle.
THOMAS: Very cool. Very cool. Could you talk a little bit about what led to the creation of this film?
CARMEN: Yeah, I think it was this kind of deep collaboration that me and my brother had developed just around my pain management and the growing of medicinal cannabis through Access to Cannabis Program through Health Canada. And I think it was just interesting as we were digging into this project of like, how do we set up a grow so my brother, who is low vision, can manage it? We were just doing this, I guess, problem solving, as you do when you just jump into something. How is this gonna work? And I think we wanted to show that process a bit.
But there was also this wonderful thing that happened when my brother started growing cannabis for me, too, is that we got to talk a lot more about disability and my brother’s vision loss, too. And as you saw in the film, he just recently sort of picked up a cane, and he’s still kind of like in that space of when to use it, if he should use it. And I just felt like this experience really brought us together. My family is very much involved, too, in the processing of the cannabis. So we have these trimming parties, and we’ll listen to some of the same tunes that you played today, [laughing] Thomas.
THOMAS: [laughs]
CARMEN: And order some pizza and trim cannabis together. And it just became this space for us to explore all these things that we were excited about and maybe wanted to explore, like tactility, like, how does that play into this process of growing cannabis, and yeah. My brother, he developed a photo series out of this process, too. And it was really a space for him to, you know, come back to his photo practice and make photos that he was really proud of that he could include in the show. I just think it’s just been a generative space for us that we wanted to show to others.
There was some reference to hallucinations in those videos. One of the longer-term goals is for my brother to actually breed a variety of cannabis that activates my visual hallucinations. So, I have quite vibrant and active hallucinations connected to my visual condition. Thomas hosted myself and a few artists on Reid My Mind talking about them With certain kinds of cannabis, these hallucinations are even more amplified, and they take on different characteristics! Through our research, my brother’s found there are a handful of cannabis varieties that are known hallucinogenic strains. And so, we’ve got our hands on a few of those, and we’ve grown a few. And we’ve made concentrates out of them, and I’ve kind of tested on myself. And they’re usually, you know, the ones that I really love are varieties that have a sort of psychedelic effect but also are good pain relievers.
I mentioned my pain condition. I have sickle cell anemia. So, yeah, I have a lot of pain that cannabis actually is really helpful for. And prior to transitioning onto cannabis, I was on Dilaudid. It was just a very different experience. My life was a lot different before I transitioned to cannabis. And, now for the most part, I mean, I still use Dilaudid, you know, when I’m having an intense crisis that might bring me to hospital or debilitating. But for the most part, I use cannabis and yeah, and some psilocybin as well, so, yeah.
THOMAS: Very good. You know, it’s interesting you mentioned the music at the beginning because I was looking for medicinal cannibal songs, cannabis songs. [laughs]
CARMEN: Mmhmm.
THOMAS: And I didn’t find any!
THOMAS and CARMEN: [delighted laughter]
CARMEN: I know. You don’t really hear people talking about getting medicated, do you?
THOMAS: No, you don’t!
THOMAS and CARMEN: [laugh again]
CARMEN: But yeah. I mean, there should be. Maybe there’s some awesome crip hip-hop artists that maybe can get into that.
THOMAS: Yeah, absolutely. Absolutely. It’s a market.
NEFERTITI: Yeah, maybe a participant today might have something for us, maybe.
THOMAS: [chuckles] Yeah. I want you to go back a little bit because you mentioned the macro photography. Can you describe it? I have a feeling many people might not be familiar with what that is.
CARMEN: Yeah. Totally. And I’ll describe it as much as I know through the process. It’s a very technical way of capturing, well, an image. And so, what you’re doing is you’re using some lenses that give you a super zoomed-up view of what you’re taking a photo of, and it kind of turns into something else altogether at that such a zoomed-in sort of view. And so, my understanding is that you take hundreds of photos that kind of get pulled together on the computer into like a composite, basically, that is a super close view of the subject. And my brother was taking photos of the cannabis lifecycle from seed to flower.
And so, some of these, like, if you can imagine a cannabis bud, and you know that the medicinal part is the oil or resin on the bud, if you take a photo, a macro photo of that, these little blobs of oil or resin, you can see them. They’re called trichomes. And they kind of look like, and I think this was the magic of Oliver described them as like a mushroom kingdom or something. They just look like this world unto itself. So, I think my brother really wants to bring people into this subject matter, medicinal plants and mushrooms and the subjects that he’s drawn to. And he said he doesn’t want people to pressure people to see something in his images. Like, you know this pressure to see. I felt that, too, as my vision has changed over the years, especially when I’m in a medical setting. Like, “can you see this?” Like, we’re testing what you can see. My brother really wants people to have a space where they can see what they want and really make their own stories about what they’re seeing as well in his images.
THOMAS: Mm.
CARMEN: Which was, yeah, which was really lovely when we were able to collaborate with you all on the description. Because it was a very involved process where, which not involved in that it was too involved. I think it was appropriately involved because we got to have conversation, me and Antonio, about what he saw and how he would describe it. So, I’m using a screen reader. I heard Oliver’s note coming through.
THOMAS: Oh. [laughs]
CARMEN: Which was that Cheryl, it was Cheryl’s magic who, Cheryl described the trichomes as the mushrooms and the mushroom kingdom. So, just clarifying there.
THOMAS: Why did you come to SADC? Like, was there something specific? Yeah.
CARMEN: [delighted laugh] I mean, you are the superstars of audio description all in one place. So, I mean, it’s kind of hard to go anywhere else. [laughs]
NEFERTITI: High praise! Thank you.
CARMEN: I mean, I’ve known Cheryl since probably 2010 or 2011, too. And I’ve been a lover of Thomas’s work for a while. And yeah, I just thought for this production to really explore what that collaborating with you might turn into. And I thought we had a really great experience. So yeah. Thank you.
THOMAS: Cool. Cool. I didn’t mean that to sound like a softball pitch there, but.
THOMAS and CARMEN: [laugh]
NEFERTITI: No, but please take it, because it’s very true. It’s very true.
THOMAS: I will take it, but also just curious, because you and Cheryl, you all sort of met, if I’m correct, let me know, around audio description. Is that correct?
CHERYL: Carmen is the person who introduced me to audio description. One of my short films was playing. I was so proud of the captions. “Yay, I have a captioned film.” And I heard somebody whispering through my whole film. I’m very distractible, and I was like, oh, rude! What is going on here? And afterward I asked somebody who were the rude people talking through my whole film? Oh, I’m the center of the universe. Why are people whispering? That’s not the literal words I said.
CARMEN: [laughs]
CHERYL: But somebody explained to me that, well, the film didn’t have any audio description, and so somebody was whispering and describing the visuals to Carmen. And it was a face, face plant, face palm, whatever you call it. I planted my palm on my face. So that was my introduction to audio description. And then Carmen, I don’t know where you lived then, but we apparently lived on the same bus route.
CARMEN: Yeah.
CHERYL: And somebody encouraged me to walk with you to the bus stop ‘cause maybe you weren’t familiar with that neighborhood.
CARMEN: Oh, you were my way to get home. I wouldn’t know how to get home otherwise! [laughs]
CHERYL: Except that we got so lost! Even though I’d been riding that bus for ten years at that point. I get so confused sometimes. And anyway, we had a lot of laughs about getting lost. But you were so gentle and encouraging in talking about, you know, there’s a thousand points of entry to access. Pick one and start there. You were not judgmental. You enjoyed my film, I think, even though it wasn’t described.
CARMEN: Yeah, yeah. For sure.
CHERYL: So, that’s how I got started. And many years later when you started asking me to do audio description for your stuff, I was pretty blown away.
CARMEN: Aw.
THOMAS: I love that story. Cheryl, do you wanna talk a little bit about the process of describing images? The idea that Carmen and Antonio laid out about wanting folks to be able to see whatever it is they see, just real quick, I think that’s the way I think about our hallucinations as well, Carmen.
CARMEN: Mmhmm, mmhmm.
THOMAS: Just it’s really interesting. So, Cheryl, yeah. Talk about that.
CHERYL: Carmen has a wonderful technique that was developed in the Simon Fraser University Pandemic Is a Portal project, which is the phone call. So, the phone call came from this idea that, you know, if you’re trying to write an image description, imagine you’re on the phone with somebody and telling them what it is. And Carmen took that ten levels higher when we were working on that project and literally did a phone call [laughs] with, I think it was Heather.
CARMEN: Mmhmm.
CHERYL: And the two of you recorded your phone call, and you talked about not only literally what was in the picture, but your concepts and your feelings and your emotions. And you gave me that, and I transcribed it, and I used it to build the image description.
So, for the macro photo series, you and Antonio did the same thing. You recorded these calls for me, which was amazing because I didn’t know what a trichome was before. So, y’all used technical terms. And then very beautifully, you would ask Antonio a lot of questions. That’s one of the things that is so exciting to the collaboration. You would ask him to share some details, and then I did research online, learned a lot more about cannabis. And I used your phone call transcript as the basis for writing the description, so that I knew I was getting what was important to y’all, but that you let me build also whatever else I wanted to.
THOMAS: That’s pretty cool. When you think about describing an image, you would just see, oh, like the only context you have is the image. But no, you build off of other things as well. So, that’s cool. Oliver, what about you, sir? What kind of research did you have to do to get into describing cannabis? [laughs]
CHERYL: [chuckles]
OLIVER: Ah, research! I think it was just here and there. Sometimes it was just a question like, that hat that Carmen’s wearing, whether it was fleece or wool or whether I could call it a beanie or something else. And sometimes it was after the fact. Like, I guessed that in one of the opening scenes that a bud was being rolled, and the leaves were being pressed against it just to narrow it up. But it was really just some leaves and I guess some b-roll, in effect. And so, I had to change that. Not research beforehand. ‘Cause Carmen, you were doing a lot of traveling during that time, so I couldn’t be in real-time contact about any question I had necessarily.
CARMEN: Yeah, but it was that back-and-forth process that I think we fine-tuned a couple things. I really loved your all’s process, too, for getting the scripts to where they could, to narration, too.
OLIVER: Yeah, I think this was probably an unusual project in my experience in the amount of and the level of evolution that happened after I submitted my draft. One thing was that the animator, Heather Kai Smith, came into the discussion pretty late. And so, some important points that she made reached me late, and so I was making changes, I guess, mainly to the pre-show, but a little bit during the show based on that.
CARMEN: It’s not the ideal way to go about developing an audio described piece. Like, some, the footage was shot before we looped you in. The animation has to be done after the video is firmed up and complete. And, yeah, it’s just, it’s a wacky timeline, I guess, that we were working on. And we were also trying to meet the deadline of the exhibition opening and the delivery date for that exhibition in Zurich. I’m continuously apologizing ‘cause I feel like I, you need, like, double the amount of time to do this well. And I mean, it’s done amazingly, and super—
OLIVER: I think some applause is due, too, because we had a conversation with Eric that led to something that never happens, which was, he introduced a little bit of a gap. He changed the editing a little bit to accommodate just a very brief line of audio description that we wouldn’t have been able to include otherwise, to make sure that blind and low vision audience members would understand what was happening during the important scene down the steps. And if things had gone the way they usually do, and with another filmmaker, with other filmmakers, that adaptation wouldn’t have happened.
THOMAS: How much of a change was it actually, Oliver, in terms of time? Like, how much time did you actually need to make that difference?
OLIVER: I think I asked for less than a second [chuckles] in one place and a little bit more than a second in another place.
CARMEN: [laughs]

OLIVER: We had an interesting kind of negotiation about where they’d be inserted because Eric sort of cherished a particular pause for the suspense, and for him, the AD voice coming in there would’ve interfered with that. So, he put the pause somewhere else, but it worked out fine. But the interesting conversation, which kind of gets into, I don’t know, an unusual amount of gray area of audio description was everybody had a different opinion about it. The filmmaker, Eric, who wasn’t used to watching films with audio description, felt the narration was a distraction. Thomas, I think you were not distracted, and you appreciated the extra information that would’ve been provided there. And then Antonio, who is losing vision and using a cane, but not so, still new to using a cane, for him, he actually appreciated the silent pause that Eric wanted to have in there because it was not old hat to him in the same way it might’ve been to you, Thomas, as more of an expert cane user.
THOMAS: Yeah.
OLIVER: That affected where we put the narration.
THOMAS: Mm, which goes into our approach in terms of audio description and that blind-centered approach, right? Why would we tailor the AD to someone who’s not going to use AD? But it’s so funny how often that’s a big part of what we do when working with filmmakers, right? Just kind of explaining that and explaining what we mean by a blind-centered approach. And that’s a perfect example of it right there, so. Very good.
CARMEN: There was something really interesting in the making of the installation at the museum in Zurich, too. Because these films were audio described, we could watch them outside of the grow room, because even when we were outside of the installation, we could still hear the AD and watch the film, which was really nice.
THOMAS: [happy laugh] That’s access!
CARMEN: Mmhmm, mmhmm.
THOMAS: Very nice.
CARMEN: I’d be happy to answer any questions about the art stuff, but also cannabis stuff, too, and my, like, yeah, whatever you wanna know!
THOMAS: Did you go back to retraining for O&M? [laughing] Did you get any more training?
CARMEN: No. I mean, I feel like my brother can give me some pointers, but I’m pretty stuck in my ways of using the cane like I like to. [chuckles]
THOMAS: Yes. And you use a black cane. Your cane is black? Is that the one you always use?
CARMEN: I do. Yeah, yeah, yeah. I just order them without the tape on them, and they’re graphite canes from Ambutech in Winnipeg. They have these silvery kind of joints that, yeah, hold the segments together, yeah.
THOMAS: Mmhmm. The collapsible parts there? Yeah.
CARMEN: Yeah, yes. Yeah. And a wooden handle. Yeah.
THOMAS: Gotcha. Oh, and a wooden handle. Okay. Very cool, very cool.
OLIVER: I wanna know finally, and for all time, is that cap fleece or pashmina?
THOMAS: [laughs]
OLIVER: It’s not a coarse weave wool.
CARMEN: I think it is wool. I mean, I have two of the same. This one looks more, see, this is more brushed. See, this is the alternative. I have a green hat, the same as I’m wearing right now, but green, in my hand. And it’s more soft. I think this is, yeah, more of like, finer woven than the one I’m wearing right now. But, yeah, I don’t know. [happy laugh]
OLIVER: Well, the mystery will have to be prolonged.
CARMEN: [laughs]
OLIVER: We’ll meet sometime.
CARMEN: Yes, and you could read the tag for me, or I could get someone to read the tag for me and send you!
NEFERTITI: Carmen, I value very much friendship and family and all of this, and I just really enjoyed witnessing that communication between your brother and you, navigating with your canes and talking about how you’re using little body parts to detect and to keep safe and to gather information and all of. I just think there’s something so, so beauteous about that. Whereas, people can think, oh, how sad or what have you. And I just, I was really moved by that, this idea that it’s a difficult time and yet you have your brother, your flesh and blood, right there to share in it with you and to share of yourself with him. And that’s captured through the growing that you do. And I heard you here say today that it’s become sort of a family endeavor. So, I just really wanna congratulate you and really appreciate that you chose to share that with the world.
CARMEN: Thank you. Aw, that’s really nice. My experience with the cannabis grow with my brother growing for me has been a really positive experience where I feel like I’ve really been able to claim some agency with regard to my pain management. And it’s very different than conversations that I might have in the medical setting. It’s based in our relationship. And even, you know, when we, for whatever reason, have friction, we still have the grow that we have to talk about. And too, you know, that kind of anchors us.
NEFERTITI: [chuckles] Yes!
CARMEN: I have to say, too, that, with my condition, So I have retinitis pigmentosa and then sickle cell anemia, and my brother shares the visual condition with me. My sister shares the blood condition with me. So, we have different, I have different relationships with both of my siblings. I carry both of those conditions. They each have, one of my parents who we got these from are not symptomatic. So, we really kind of have banded together in certain ways around our conditions and in really deep ways. And for years and years, until I would say 2020, my sister was the only person I really could talk to about sickle cell. I didn’t really know anybody else. And it wasn’t until I met someone through disability art that also has sickle cell and is like, “This is who I am. And this has this is my experience,” that I was really able to even explore that part of my experience. And my brother gets very, too, like, my brother gets very specific about what he’s growing for me, how it’s working for me, what kinds of things we need to change. Like, it’s a dialogue about my pain management in a very kind of this exchange that I might not have in another setting, yeah.
NEFERTITI: Yeah, it sounds very personal and literal cultivation of care. Literally, you have—
THOMAS: Nice! [laughs]
NEFERTITI: Yeah, right? I got some bars. [laughs]
THOMAS: Nice!
CARMEN: [happy laugh]
NEFERTITI: But yeah, you’re literally cultivating the care, and the cannabis is the tangible proof of that connection.
CARMEN: Right.
NEFERTITI: And it’s just beautiful. Beautiful, beautiful, beautiful.
THOMAS: Yeah.
CARMEN: I should say, there are a lot of people who serve this role in their communities, like as a caregiver-grower for people who are pain patients or who have other chronic illnesses. And it is such an interesting relationship with others in your community. You know, you have this passion for growing and maybe even supporting them in the ways that you can through the grow. But like, you get to know them so personally because, I mean, there’s a lot of, yeah, growers grow for, say, a handful of patients, like 15, sometimes 30. But they’re getting to know these people and what they need and what works for them too. So, it really is a lovely kind of experience. Some cultivators, too, grow strains specifically for people who need what they provide. I just think that’s really wonderful. Yeah.
NEFERTITI: Yes.
THOMAS: Carmen, is that the term, “caregiver-growers”? Is that the name?
CARMEN: Yeah, yeah.
THOMAS: Okay, okay. ‘Cause I know someone who might be interested in doing something like that. Yeah, that’s very cool. Very cool.
NEFERTITI: Yeah. I’m learning so much. I don’t know about these things, so quite an education for me and I think for others. And I also think we had a hand raised, if I caught that. Susannah Mars?
SUSANNAH: Yeah. Hi, this is Susannah.
NEFERTITI: Hi!
SUSANNAH: I just felt I enjoyed it so much. And I love the juicy language that you used. I love the marshmallow tip cane. And similarly to Nefertiti, I felt that nurturance of the plants and the caring among living things is so beautiful because it really crosses between the relationships and the care and the really caring for all living things in that generous and loving way. And the relationships, I appreciated, again, like Nefertiti mentioned, the joy of your relationships and that connection that just suffuses the whole work. It’s very beautiful. I appreciated it, and Thomas, I thought your voice was just lovely mixed in, in the mix. You know, it was all just—
NEFERTITI: Always!
SUSANNAH: —beautiful.
THOMAS: Thank you, Susannah. Thank you. Appreciate it.
SUSANNAH: Thank you. Mmhmm.
NEFERTITI: Always, always. Thomas Reid elevates anything Thomas Reid touches, I just wanna say!
CARMEN: Mmhmm.
THOMAS: Aw, thank you, Nef.
NEFERTITI: Yes! Oh, this is wonderful.
THOMAS: I do wanna ask you a little bit about the ear cleansing. Can you talk about, a little bit about, you know, the way you look at sound and just think about in terms of non-visual and what the ear cleansing thing was really all about?
CARMEN: Yeah, yeah. So, when I was in my undergrad at Simon Fraser University, I took some acoustic communications classes. It’s like the university where that whole practice and field of soundscape studies emerged. In the late ‘60s, there was this thing called the World Soundscape Project, and it was a initiated by R. Murray Schafer, who I talk about in that piece. But they basically got together a handful of researchers who went out into the environment and just started recording sound and listening and developing terminology for what they were noticing. And this whole field of study kind of like, you know, we have the word “soundscape”. We have various ways of even protecting the acoustic environment from noise and sound pollution, noise pollution, sorry. And I just heard about this practice of, like, okay, let’s, it’s sort of like the focus you get when you shut your eyes and are trying to focus your non-visual senses. You just kind of plug your ears for a time, and then you unplug them. And then you are acutely aware of what sounds are where.
And I don’t know. For me, it was a process of learning how sound was spatialized. At the beginning of my vision loss, like, starting to use a cane, I would have to spend time in a room. And you know, I used to run this reading series, poetry event at this bar here called the Railway Club. And I remember just like, it was so acoustically cluttered in that space. And I would sit there, and I was like, I can’t make sense of any of this. But eventually, I just started active listening in that space, and I could, you know, voices, you know. I kind of recognized who was talking, where they were, like, what the dimensions of the space were. I kind of adopted this active listening practice through acoustic communications and these practices that whole crew around the World Soundscape Project. But I think, you know, without that tool, I would find my own way, and I, you know, I know. Sorry, I have to mention that a friend, Andy Slater, who is a blind artist, he really, he dislikes R. Murray Schafer. He’s like, oh, he should not get the spotlight. We should get the spotlight because we’ve been learning how to listen before there was a term for it.
THOMAS: When Antonio said that once he took the earplugs out, and he, it was about 30 seconds that he was looking for something new. He wanted to hear something different. And I was just like, oh, wow. That’s really interesting because there’s sort of like a rule of thumb when creating audio pieces that says, yeah, things should change every 30 seconds because folks’ interests change.
CARMEN: Hmm.
THOMAS: And so, I was like, oh, wow! Look at that. I don’t know if they’re related, [laughs] but he just so happened to be looking for something after 30 seconds, which jumped out at me. Yeah. Very cool. Anyone else have anything?
CHERYL: Go ahead, Susan!
SUE: I was very touched by the scene where your brother was describing what made the plant happy and how you could tell the plant was happy by the angle of the leaves. I have a green thumb, and I raise a lot of plants. And I once went into a car dealer to wait for my car, and the plant that was in the waiting room was very miserable and unhappy. And I went over to the receptionist, and I said, “Please help this plant. It’s very unhappy.” And she just looked at me. So, when the car was returned to me, I took the plant home and took care of it.
CARMEN: Mm!
SUE: And that one scene reminded me of all the times that I notice when plants are happy, but I never thought of touching the plant to see if it was happy.
CARMEN: Mmhmm.
SUE: I notice it by looking at it, so I’m gonna touch my plants more now.
CARMEN: That’s really nice. I love that. He is so attuned to their needs, and he spends time with them so much. And when you’re in the grow room too, you feel like you are…. They have a presence to them.
SUE: Yes.
CARMEN: And yeah, I really like that. And you were attuned to the needs of that plant when you walked into that car dealership. Which, yeah, I think it is a relationship that you have with these living things that you are growing. It’s quite amazing to, you know, like the whole process to like, you know, from seed to, like, when— They’re so fragile, too, as well. When we had our outdoor grow that there was, that was shown in the films, it was on this patio outdoors. There’s about ten plants out there. They got to over six feet tall, maybe seven feet tall eventually. And in Vancouver, you know, you plant them in April, and then they’re ready in maybe October. We had a lot of wind and rain by then, so it’s not a great place for outdoor growing. And I remember getting, because my parents were also keeping their eye on the plants sometimes, they were like, oh. I mean, I remember getting this call that it sounded like they were on a ship or something. They were like, “Oh no! These plants are gonna tip over, and we’re gonna lose them!” And so, it was, I really think it’s like damage control.
The challenge is just protecting them so they can cross the finish line by the end, ‘cause they just grow so tall. And with the weather conditions here, it’s just not ideal. But those kinds of things, I mean, of course, it really just, my brother was so affected by that! And of course, you know, you put months of care into these plants, and you want them to make it to the end. And then each of them holds like 100, sometimes more, 100 grams or more of cannabis. And yeah, if it’s not ready yet, there’s only so much you can do to make it usable. Yeah, it doesn’t get its full growth cycle.
SUE: You sound like, what you were just saying is a metaphor for raising children.
CARMEN: [chuckles]
NEFERTITI: Yeah, and I was going to say life in general, right?
SUE: Yeah.
NEFERTITI: We invest in things, and sometimes they fruit, and sometimes they rot. And you know, it’s like, yeah. I think it’s a beautiful metaphor for these things.
THOMAS: Just don’t smoke your children.
CARMEN, NEFERTITI, and THOMAS: [huge laughs]
THOMAS: Sorry, I couldn’t resist that one.
NEFERTITI: That’s a good one, Thomas. Good advice. Life hack. [laughs]
THOMAS: No, hopefully that’s not good advice!
CARMEN, NEFERTITI, and THOMAS: [still laughing]
NEFERTITI: Earlier you did say “cannibal”. I’m just saying. [laughs]
THOMAS: I know I did say that. Cool, cool. Very good.
OLIVER: I just wanna be sure to thank Carmen and Antonio in absentia for letting us, you know, SADC and with the Blind Audio Chat to premiere these cool movies. Thank you.
CARMEN: Yeah, thank you.
THOMAS: 100%. Yeah.
NEFERTITI: Can people watch these films anywhere? Are you showing them in any film festivals? Do you have plans for the future?
CARMEN: Yeah, we have a longer, we’re gonna launch our Impaired website ‘cause it’s just gonna show our progress. But they’re first gonna be available through SADC’s site, I believe.
OLIVER: Premiering and then living, for at least a while, as streamables on our website.
CARMEN: Yeah, yeah. So, super happy about that. And yeah, we’re continuing to work on, we have a show coming up, another exhibition me and my brother are in, in 2026 at the Mackenzie Art Gallery in Saskatchewan. We have all sorts of plans to do…. Well, we’re still in this long-term process of developing a hallucinogenic pain reliever, a strain of cannabis. My brother’s proposed a name for that strain, Tripping Hazard, which I kind of, I like, yeah.
NEFERTITI: Love it!
CARMEN: [laughs]
NEFERTITI: Oh, my God! I love that!
CARMEN: Yes, yeah.
NEFERTITI: Oh, I’m a sucker for a play on words. I love it.
CARMEN: If anyone shows up in Vancouver, you know, we are legal for recreational use here, and I do have some homemade concentrates that I’d love to share, especially for folks who are, who do have visual hallucinations. ‘Cause I, one of the things I’ve been loving is talking to people like Thomas and Andy and our friend Collin and others about their visual hallucinations and also how cannabis might affect them. Yeah.
THOMAS: Absolutely. Absolutely! Let me just. Hold on. I was just on Flights.com. Vancouver.
CARMEN, NEFERTITI, and THOMAS: [big laughs]
NEFERTITI: I was thinking when I was in Vancouver last year, damn it, I wish I would’ve known of you, at least, because I would’ve definitely made an effort to try and connect. But I know you now, and I work for a Vancouver company, so.
CARMEN: Cool, cool.
NEFERTITI: Yeah, I might come through.
CARMEN: For sure.
NEFERTITI: Thank you so much.
THOMAS: Bring me something back, Nef. [laughs]
NEFERTITI: You bet, Thomas. Absolutely. Well, thank you, again, Carmen, for your time, for your talent, for your knowledge. And thank you, Oliver, for being here as part of the process, Cheryl and Thomas as co-hosts and co-members of the BCAD and SADC. We have a monopoly on all these letters, y’all.
THOMAS and CARMEN: [laugh]
NEFERTITI: And yeah, do we have any final thoughts as we shut this baby down? Okay. I think that answers that.
THOMAS: Smoke ‘em if you got ‘em.
CARMEN: Thank you so much, everybody. I hope you all enjoy today, and yeah, imbibe or partake in whatever ways you feel comfortable. I do love rolling a joint, actually. Like, that’s like, I love the tactile experience of, I use these raw, they’re called raw cone wraps or something, king-size cone wraps. And I just love filling them and twisting them and yeah, just. Yeah, I guess it’s like a nice pairing to our dreary weather here, sitting on the patio in the rain [laughs] with a joint.
THOMAS: Yeah. Sounds good.
CARMEN: Yeah.
NEFERTITI: Heck yeah. That’s artistry in and of itself.
CARMEN: [laughs] Yeah.
NEFERTITI: Yeah, definitely.
OLIVER: And this has been a joint production.
THOMAS and NEFERTITI: [laugh]
NEFERTITI: Nice, Oliver! Nice. All right, everybody, thank you so much. Till next time!

THOMAS: Cool. Well, that concludes this week’s conversation. Why don’t y’all keep the conversation going on social media.
CHERYL: Use #ADFUBU, for us by us, #DescribeEverything, and #AudioDescription.
NEFERTITI: And hey, you know we’re out here, right? Mmhmm! Gathered and galvanized y’all. If you haven’t joined us yet, what are you waiting for?! You can find us in the LinkedIn Audio Description group and the AD Twitter community. We know that your participation will only make these spaces better.
Music fades out!

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