Reid My Mind

AD: A True Crime Story

TR:
What’s up Family? It’s your brother, Thomas… Thomas Reid!
Host and producer of this here podcast. Sheesh!
If you’ve been here for a while, you know sometimes something about audio description gets on my last nerve and I choose to speak on it. Well, that hasn’t necessarily changed.
There’s a lot to be annoyed at.
Sub par AD is running wild out here.
Culturally competent audio description is still extremely lacking.
Streaming networks like Apple choose to use like 3 or four narrators for everything.
Ok, admittingly, I don’t watch that much on Apple, but I don’t think I’ve ever heard a narrator of color on any content.
And to all you Apple stans, please don’t send me one example in their defense.
AD providers still haven’t committed to working with Blind Narrators and QC specialists in a sustainable way.
If any network were going to show support to Blind narrators and QC Specialists, I would have put my money on Apple. This is why I don’t gamble y’all!
Last year, I decided that I’m not going to rant. Well I’m going to try not to rant. That doesn’t mean I’m going to be quiet. I want to find ways to say something but be creative.
So today, I present to you, my take on the true crime genre…
Take it away bro!
Narrator:
The following is a dramatization.
The purpose of this is not to blame, implicate or judge individuals. It is however an artistic expression of the frustration with the current state and foreseeable future of audio description.
While this story is fiction, it does include real people from real publicly held events.
In most cases their names have been withheld, but not the companies they represent.
— Reid My Mind Radio theme Music
— Suspenseful cinematic music
Lies, deceit, murder?
This is the case of AD, A True Crime Story!
— Audio: President Obama signing the CVAA
President Obama:
The Twenty First Century Communications and Video Accessibility Act will make it easier for people who are Deaf, blind or live with a visual impairment to do what many of us take for granted from navigating a TV or DVD menu, to sending an email on a smart phone.
… I’ll sign it now… (Applause)
— An uplifting pop tune.
AD:
I can’t tell you how excited I was when President Obama signed this legislation.
Even watching this now, gives me chills!
Narrator in conversation with AD:
Why was this so special to you?
Oh my goodness!
This was the chance I was waiting for since starting my career!
It might sound corny, but I always knew, this was my calling.
I was certain, this, was the opportunity I’d been waiting for.
Would you mind introducing yourself?
Sure, all my friends call me AD. My pronouns are They Them.
In two thousand ten, AD was only in their 20’s. Relatively early in their career, and they were bouncing back from some setbacks in the early two thousands.
My career really began in theater.
Then, in the 90’s, I got a chance to work with PBS.
I have to say, It really hurts me today as this administration is so set on destroying PBS and NPR.
I not only feel a kinship with these vital organizations because I worked with PBS, but I know what it feels like to have a target on your back.
I’ve been in that position for the past few years.
Not by this administration though. Well, at least, not yet!
AD continued at PBS and while they enjoyed that work, like others, they had dreams of reaching more people.
In two thousand ten, with the signing of the Twenty First Century Communications and Video Accessibility Act, or CVAA, AD’s future appeared to be bright. Advocates worked tirelessly to help pass legislation that would help AD and others not only secure the right to work, but broaden their career opportunities.
No longer would they be confined to limited hours on children’s television, they were going prime time!
I went from begging film makers to include me, to Hollywood specifically calling me! They were now seeing me, as a valuable asset able to enhance their stories!
And then, the streaming services came online. Oh my gosh! Just when I thought life couldn’t get any better.
This was around 2015.
Streaming companies were invested in AD and their talent.
Netflix Representative:
I think we first heard the calls for audio description
around 2014 when we were just launching into our own original content.
We spent most of 2014 doing a lot of the sort of back end work trying to prep ourselves to be able to provide audio description consistently. A lot of different research and creating different technical specifications to make sure that audio description would play back on all the many different devices through which people access Netflix.
We also created audio description style guides. We wanted to make sure that when we were ordering audio description that there was a consistent experience across that was high quality, that used good voice talent, good script writing, and that also met, like I said, the technical specifications so that we could ingest those files and then make sure that they could play back on all the different devices.
We also set up a lot of partnerships with different companies that create audio description to make sure we had a really healthy supply chain. Uh, knowing that we were launching full force into a huge volume of content, we knew that as we made a commitment to create audio description on all of our original content, that that was not going to be a trivial amount. We set up that supply chain and made sure we had good script authors and talent and recording studios, and also made sure that we had a really healthy pool of people who could QC audio description to make sure that we had had a set of ears on the files before they went live, to get ahead of any issues that might come out. So we worked on that for most of 2014 and then in 2015 we launched Daredevil without audio description. So that was definitely a miss, and we heard it from the community loud. Luckily, we had already done all that legwork, like I said, in 2014 so we recovered quickly and put that up, as well as about 100 other titles by the end of the summer of 2015 and from there, we dug in hard on that investment, and I’m happy to say that today, we have over 13,000 hours of audio described content on Netflix.
We’ve committed to creating audio description on all of our original content, and we also do our very best to make sure that we get the licensed content, we’ve actually added the need for audio description to our contractual obligations with our content partners.
It was so promising!
Even better, listening, reading and watching the feedback from the community through podcasts, blogs and YouTube was so gratifying.
You can’t under estimate the value AD brought to the community.
Fan 1:
AD changed my life.
Because I now had access, I find myself in conversations with more people because I can talk about the latest film or streaming series. I’m bonding with more people and I never realized this was possible.
Fan 2:
Watching AD, helped give me the courage to believe I could do more. I wanted to follow in their footsteps and today I’m working in a field that I never believed was possible.
Fan 3:
Today, I don’t watch anything unless it has AD.
With it’s new found popularity and all the opportunity that came from the CVAA, AD moved from one gig to the next.
Live television events like the Olympics and even award shows wanted AD.
More streaming services were coming online and sought out AD.
I was working constantly.
I was even invited on a cruise [laughs] only to find out it was a working trip.
In between projects, I had time to self reflect.
I listened to the community. That was eye opening.
No pun intended.
Ok, huh, AD has a sense of humor.
When I finally understood that my work wasn’t serving everyone equitably, I knew I needed to do a better job.
I realized, I had to better represent all cultures.
I even tapped into my ability to speak multiple languages and started bringing that to my work.
I was excited about not only my future, but what it could mean for my supporters.
Wow! At a time when I didn’t think the work could get better, it became even more of a passion!
— suspenseful music…
So where did things go wrong? What exactly happened to AD?
More after this message.
POD Access trailer
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If you’re currently thinking about launching a podcast, but have no idea how to start?
CHERYL: The types of podcasts, finances.
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— music fades out
Ten years after the CVAA, AD, was having even more of an impact on it’s supporters.
— Covid 19 Pandemic Announcement of Lock down.
In two thousand twenty the Covid 19 pandemic hit and forced corporations around the world to re-examine what work will look like in the near future.
In fact, for many it forced them to consider what workers look like.
Fortunately, some corporations had open minded people in charge and saw talent in the Blind community. Rather than just seeing fans of AD, or consumers,
— An uplifting synth opens to a pop beat.
they saw people who can help contribute and work with AD.
Wait, what?
You’re going to tell me I get to work directly with those who have been supporting me for years?
They say if you love your work, you’ll never work a day in your life.
— Music ends.
Well, I went on a permanent vacation when I got the chance to work with more of my supporters. It made me better!
— Dramatic bass heavy suspenseful drone.
And then things fell apart.
— Downton Abby Scene with TTS
Online Streaming companies turned to Artificial Intelligence (AI) and text To Speech (TTS).
For more on exactly why, we turn to a representative of Amazon
who further explained the company’s position during a panel discussion held in two thousand twenty two at the ACB convention.
Amazon guy:
We looked at the velocity of of how fast audio descriptions were being created. We looked at the very large back catalog of content. And we thought, you know, if we were going to really achieve the vision of what our audio description program is within Prime Video, that every single title is described, and, you know, audio descriptions are generally as available as closed captions are, then we would need to, you know, disrupt how audio descriptions are created. And so we’ve been working on text to speech audio descriptions for about a year and a half to date.
We have over 4000 text to speech tracks live on the service.
We have one person who kind of does everything the writing and the descriptions and the time coding, and then directs the text to speech engine. But we have every single track before it’s published on the service also goes through a human quality control review. So we are making sure that there is a second person involved in the process that reviews and detects those things that you know the writer may miss.
The more iterations you do on anything, the better quality product there will be.
Did anyone consider that yes, quality gets better over time, but in what other field do they release a sub par product to the consumer?
Who does that?
We spoke with AD supporters who shared their frustration.
Consumer 1:
I feel forced to make a decision every time I open a streaming service and launch a series or movie only to hear what I know is TTS.
I know they say they’re working to improve the quality of these voices, but it feels like they’re working harder to try and trick me.
Some of these companies using TTS narrators are crediting and naming the narrator.
Even if that TTS voice is based on a human, that doesn’t feel genuine to me. It feels like you’re just playing in my face.
Using AI in the production process goes beyond TTS.
The mixing is automated as well. And so it’s a separate process that is fully automated. You write the script and you get live feedback on the audio as you’re writing it, but then eventually, when it goes into mixing, that is automated as well.
We definitely realize there as well that is not as good as a human going through and mixing the track, but we think over time, we can build improvements into the track to get it as close or as to human quality mixing in the future.
The benefit of keeping everything automated, and that’s one of the reasons why we’re going fast, and we feel a little bit more comfortable about going quickly, is all of our tracks are never finished. I think that’s an important thing that we can do. We can very easily fix the script, and then, you know, automatically re voice and remix the track. If, if the improvements in text to speech come, we can, you know, use new text to speech engines to, you know, improve, improve the quality of the voicing. And as we’re, you know, making improvements in the automated mixing quality process as well. It’s very easy to for me to take all 4000 of those tracks and rerun them through the new, enhanced improvement in the mixing technology to improve the mix as well.
What?
So a consumer who watches a film that has poor quality description or doesn’t like the TTS voice, should just come back in a year or two to try again?
Who consumes content in that way? How could they say this is a working solution with a serious face?
As we hear from representatives from other streaming companies, it’s obvious, AI and TTS was always in play and part of the plan.
Peacock:
Certainly we are committed to innovation and would look to in the future, find ways of making audio description as efficient. Right and widely available as possible. And you know, text to speech could be one solution that that’s pursued.
I think you know there are ways that industry has to look to be able to deliver more content faster. And certainly, you know, technology solutions like text to speech may help.
Paramount:
Right now we don’t, and you know, we don’t have any immediate plans to do so, but I would say that, you know, my answer to that is, is similar to what Tom said, which is that
it is something that we’re looking at, and in part because, not as so much as a replacement for the live voice version of description, but as a way to possibly expand the amount of description that we have available on something like paramount.
The quality is improving there. It’s,
it’s certainly quicker than doing the traditional way. And it’s less expensive.
so I think it is something that we’re just looking at down the road as something that you know potentially could offer more content with description available.
Hulu:
In regard to Hulu originals, we currently only accept audio description that are read by human voice actors. So we don’t take auto generated or speech to text at this time, and we do try to make sure that we have consistency in our voice talent across episodes and seasons of a series
That was representatives from Peacock, Paramount and Hulu respectively.
Next, hear from HBO Max, Apple and Disney.
HBO Max:
We actually strive to really have our content voice acted. First and foremost, we’re a company. We’re an entertainment company. And you know, our value is really to create great entertainment. So it makes sense.
Apple:
We’re focusing on, you know, live human being, audio description. It’s kind of where we are at the moment. You know, I think, as some people have said, I think no one really knows where the future is going to go, but it’s not where we are currently putting our focus. We like the way things are at the moment.
Disney:
It is definitely something lucrative to look at. However. We have not ventured out that way just yet.

Consumer 2:
All of the effort these companies put into TTS, it’s like their trying to convince me that I want something I don’t want.
Today, it’s hard to find any platform that doesn’t employ TTS.
I think that’s a business decision that each studio needs to make.
We don’t want the trade off to be between text to speech and human that’s not the trade off we’re trying to address that. Really the trade off we’re trying to address is between no audio descriptions and text to speech.
— In order and panned from left to right:
A man confusedly says “Huh”, followed by a woman and dog with similar responses.
Consumer 3:
Why do, they, get to decide my options?
As a Blind consumer, I’m left with two choices, watch, or not.
Not much of a choice in my book!
The lack of choices can make some feel helpless. Not exactly what the CVAA was striving for.
Equal access, equal opportunity and equal respect for every American.
Equal access, equal opportunity, the freedom to make of our lives what we will; living up to these principles is an obligation we have as Americans.
What hurt me the most was, I expected someone to say something in my defense.
It was, after all, an organization of the Blind. I expected more pushback.
Not everyone was silent.
The community WAS speaking out against TTS and AI early on.
Online conversations like Blind Centered Chats, that often featured people from the community were vocal.
Clip from BCAD Chats 001
We didn’t talk about the fact that, well, how do we get the industry to really center blind people and blind and low vision people? Because right now I’m not sure if that is the case when it comes to audio description. I don’t always feel as though we are at the center of this. And there’s many reasons that I feel like that. Number one, I think this conversation about quantity and quality really does come down to who is being centered. Because when we talk about the quantity and really going for that, I think quantity, that whole, that kinda relates back to the whole compliance, let’s just get it done because the government is telling us we need to get it done. And that, to me-
NEFERTITI: Mmhmm. Checking that box.
THOMAS: Yeah. That, to me, brings about the Amazons, the AI, and all of that.
SCOTT N: [growls]
THOMAS: That’s what that’s about. And I think we all, the majority of us probably agree that that’s not really quality, you know, and we’re not centered in that conversation. That wasn’t about us. That wasn’t about bringing a good product to the people. That was more about, again, checking that box, like Nef said, and just making sure our numbers, and we do it efficiently, right? We do it on the cheap. That’s what that’s about. So, we’re not centered.
NEFERTITI: Do it on the cheap, do it at scale.
Other podcasts and content creators were vocal, perhaps not as loud as they could have been, but those in power either didn’t hear or care to hear the feedback.
This clip from an episode of Reid My Mind Radio’s Flipping the Script on Audio Description, reminds us that even audio description providers were sounding the alarm.
Clip from FTSAD: No One Will Save Us Part 2
When I invited Eric and Rhys to join me on the podcast,
I asked them each to bring three to five issues that most threaten the future of AD and some thoughts as to what we can do about them.
Eric:
I mean, there’s a few things that stand out.
Obviously, TTS synthetic speech, however you want to phrase it, I think that’s a problem.
It impacts our voiceover folks. But it also affects every area downstream for audio description.
A lot of companies that have no business being in this space are in this space. And they’re in it in major ways.
Rhys:
And it goes beyond just the sound of the voice, right?
Great narration track is often done by somebody who’s connecting to the material. Well, you know, who doesn’t connect to material? TTS doesn’t connect to the material, there’s no lived experience of being LGBTQ for a TTS voice. Whereas you get the human narrator, skilled, who’s doing content of that type, in the connection that they come through, it’s not performative, but it’s subtle, but it’s there, and it’s present. If you’re an adept listener of audio description, you can hear it, that person gives a crap about what they’re doing. And
we stand to lose all of that.
Does TTS serve a function in audio description? 100%. Like.
How to videos on YouTube, go for it.
That’s an entirely reasonable application for TTS. But if you’re taking premium content, what is it you’re trying to achieve by doing that?
The answer all your questions in life is money. That’s the old cliche.
It’s a pathetic thing that I have to say, but that’s really the answer. It’s always comes down to money.
— Sesame Street Word of the Day!
Can you say capitalism?
Ahh!The truth is, everywhere you look, there’s someone
trying to make a fast dollar by cutting costs and sacrificing quality.
Remember Economics class? Caveat Emptor or Let the buyer beware.
Consumers of all types should be educated enough to know the value of what they’re buying.
In this case, we’re talking about large companies, networks and streaming services that frankly have no experience with audio description.
So, how can they even begin to define quality AD?
Yet still they’re procuring millions of dollars in AD for old and new content.
They’re being misguided, misled because they’re talking to the clowns. They’re talking to people who are trying to sell them on something. They’re not necessarily talking to the audience.
I always encourage them, Are you sure, have you spoken to anybody about this? Has anybody told you by the way the audience doesn’t like this.
But the other part of this is an AD providers. If you’re confronted with that conversation, what do you do? Do you just go? Yes, sir, we can do it? Or do you go and take that opportunity to talk to them about what they’re asking for, to take that opportunity to go? Are you sure that the experience you want your audience to have of your content? That is your precious, precious item is a subpar experience? Because it doesn’t need to be.
Some how, some where, someone found a way to
either justify or convince streaming platforms and broadcasters that AD users want TTS.
TR in Conversation with Eric & Rhys:
Wow, so you telling me that companies come to you? And they say we want TTS?
Yep. They do.
AI and TTS definitely can help a single passion project based podcast to produce an idea in order to express himself and hopefully make a point. But even I agree, there are limits.

— Suspenseful cinematic music

AD is still working today, but they say their future just doesn’t shine as bright as it did in the early years following the CVAA.
I can only imagine the pain of living day after day, being turned down for gigs, while watching as AI and TTS slowly replaces you.
I’m sure that can really take a toll on someone.
it feels like the classic Hollywood story.
Rising up from the bottom after working so hard, and then reaching the top.
It’s one thing to lose after so much success, but I can’t even describe the pain of watching the community move on.
In fact, they even continue to celebrate as if their unaware of the losses.
Sources tell me, AD, is considering going underground.
The less value placed on them the less likely supporters will be inclined to pay for their services.
That’s not really an optimal solution for anyone, but I also understand it is a response.
If AD can only make their way into the hearts and minds of creators, chances are they can have even more of a future. Not only providing the equitable access but perhaps even more of a chance to flex their creative muscles.

AD:
For years, I based my value on my productivity and how I could impact the organization’s bottom line.
I no longer see it that way.
I’m aware of what I bring to the community.
Not only am I helping more people access content, but I’m impacting culture, education, creativity. I’m making relationships and connections that go beyond access.
Today, I’m working more with independent producers who know the value of human centered art.
We’re having conversations that go beyond sticking to the script. I’m being asked for my creative input. This gives me hope and is actually exciting!
A true crime story that ends with the presumed victim feeling optimistic?
This is far from the norm.
Strangely, in this story, the true victims, don’t seem to realize they’ve been lied to.
They don’t know they were deceived.
In fact, some are celebrating as if none of this ever happened.
If that isn’t a crime, tell me , what is it?

— Music continues and fades out.

TR:
Reid My Mind Radio Family!
A few episodes ago I told you all about Portraits and Portals.
A powerful art showcase uplifting disabled artists and disaster survivors of color .
The art takes on multiple formats including audio, poetry, song and visual art.
As this is Flipping the Script, I know we have listeners and readers who are quite skilled in writing description.
Well it just so happens that Portraits and Portals are asking the community to share some of their creative and poetic descriptions for the artwork posted on the site.
They’ll include it among the access resources available for visitors with vision loss.
Just go to PortraitsAndPortals.com and visit the artist pages.
You’ll be able to provide your description for visual art pieces.
Who better than those who rock with Flipping the Script.
I’ll link you there directly on this episodes blog post at ReidMyMind.com.

This concludes the Flipping the Script on Audio Description season.
I’ll be back and hope you stay tuned.

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For all y’all thinking, hmmm, what can I do| I wrote a checklist so you can become official too
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(Applause)
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— Music continues
Transcripts and more are available at ReidMyMind.com.
That’s my address on these internets.
And be careful, there’s a lot of artificial out here. It’s not all intelligent.
Sometimes it’s hard to know what’s real and what’s not.
There’s only one way to make sure you’re traveling safely out here, and you reach your intended destination.?
You gotta spell it right…
that’s R to the E I D!
“D” And that’s me in the place be!, Slick Rick

Like my last name.
— Reid My Mind Radio Outro
Peace

Hide the transcript

TR:
In today’s episode, we continue in our ongoing advocacy for the inclusion of Blind people in audio description. Since this is Flipping the Script, where we go beyond the mainstream AD conversation, we’re going to show you how AD contributes to our creativity.

Welcome! I’m Thomas Reid and this is Reid My Mind Radio!

— Reid My Mind Radio theme music.

Kemal:
My name is Kemal Gorey. Some of my friends call me KG. I’m a Media Composer. He him, I identify as blind or legally blind. I have kind of brown gray hairs, medium length, and I have glasses, not sunglasses, but I have some fancy Mont Blanc glasses that I always like to mention because they are fancy.

Sample: “And I’m Super Bad” James Brown

I’m currently serving at ramped as a secretary. Recording Artists & Music Professionals with Disabilities. Also, I have a guide dog, who name is Blute means cloud in English.
She’s a yellowish golden retriever. But when she was a baby, the donors told me that she look like a cloud. So that’s why they gave the name Blute. If I do not mention her, she will make it a big deal.

TR in Conversation with Kemal:
Yeah. My daughter just got a dog it’s a baby, and he just got neutered, or, as I like to say, destroyed.

— Sound of a dog whimpering.

TR:
Now that I mentioned two dogs, I bet this will be one of the highest ranking podcast episodes. (Chuckles) You can’t compete with children or animals!

TR in Conversation with Kemal:
So let’s talk about your relationship to disability, so folks have an understanding of where we’re coming from in this conversation.

Kemal:
My journey as a visually impaired individual starts in my really early months on the face of the earth.

My usual habit was blending in and finding some workarounds. That’s the main, central part of my relationship with my disability.

There’s a two face of this medallion this picture. First part is, yes, being innovative, being an inventor, and trying to blend in into the community.

Yes, I’m a natural problem solver, just like all other individuals with disabilities. But on the other hand, most of the energy that I’ve been spending in my childhood, to find ways to blend in, blend into the community, blend into the kindergarten , in the school, and Everywhere. It’s a matter of fact that how to hide yourself and how to hide your identity. It’s a dark part, because people, at least in 90s in my country, Turkey, it’s always a thing. People try to identify you with something.

you don’t look like you’re blind at all. That’s a thing.

TR:
A thing that we know is not exclusive at all to Turkey. In fact, this isn’t exclusive to blindness.

Over the years of producing this podcast, I’ve had the opportunity to speak with so many people about their own experience with disability. There’s no difference between, “You don’t look Blind” and “Girl, you look too good to be in a wheel chair.”

Another common experience we share, not giving in to the idea of hiding yourself.

Kemal:
And this was the center of my relationship with my disabled identity for a long time of my life, until the adulthood. Then I learned how to accept my identity, welcome it, and make it part of my life.

Yes, I’m blind, and it’s not only the part of my identity, but as a professional, it’s the part of my brand also.
When I decided to accept my identity as a trained musician, as a human being, as a composer , then the color of things started to change in a good way.
because then I know who I am, I accept who I am, I celebrate who I am

Then I found my community, although not in my country, but in the States. In spite of the fact that I still based in Istanbul, my body lives in Istanbul, but my career and my community stays and grows in the States, and I can’t be glad and grateful enough for that.

TR in Conversation with Kemal:
So I’m wondering, when you say blending in, does that have something to do with you and how you took to music? Is there a relationship?

Kemal:
You’re on a really great track here. That’s where my journey with music begins, and that’s the main motivation.

I remember my very first on stage experience, and it was when I was four. My uncle is a well known rock star in my country. Is one of the legends, one of the local and even kind of an international rock legend in Turkey, and my first, very first on stage experience was a duet with him. I think he was thinking it would be adorable to make a duet with a four year old kid.

TR:
Remember what I said about children and animals.

Kemal:
I remember clearly when I’ve seen all the crowd, and I was on stage, I thought, oh my god, the crowd area it’s really messy. It’s overcrowded and there’s a lot of noise in there and dark.
But on the contrary, stage was bright. There was only five or six people on the stage, and I have the microphone, so it looked safer to me.

TR:
And then it went beyond safety.

Kemal:
People shouting your name, clapping, celebrating you, good stuff comes with the live performance.

I can say that my father is an amateur guitar player. Music always was the great part of. My life. Yes, my the stereo was my beloved toy in my childhood when I was a kid. But this is the moment that I decided to start that journey. Maybe I didn’t know that entirely, but it led me to this professional path. That moment on the stage with the lights, and I was the one who has the microphone, who had the microphone.

TR in Conversation with Kemal:
I love that.

What’s your uncle’s name?

Kemal:
My uncle has a really long Turkish name. Nejat Yavasogullari. The band’s name is Bulutsuzluk Ozlemi. He and his band has a really unique and important place, because my uncle himself mentored many other younger rock groups and opened the path for them, that’s why their legend. And also their song is still at the top of the rock genre in Turkey.

TR:
While that was Kemal’s first and last time performing with his uncle , (I’m telling you there’s no competing with children and animals)that set Kemal on his path. It helped him find his instrument.

Kemal:
I instantly fell in love with that big instrument and all the possibilities.

— Music begins: A bright piano melody.

I studied violin and cello in fine arts high school. I took some violin lessons, even drum set lessons. I still in love with bass guitar by myself, but the piano was the weapon I choose back in days, because
in my humble opinion, I think it’s the most complex instrument and the core of the music.

TR in Conversation with Kemal:
What were you listening to as a child that really sort of kind of connected with you?

Kemal:
Even though I’m a Turkish kid born and raised in Turkey because of my father and mother, jazz, blues and rock has (been )the major part in my life.

My dad is a really big Miles Davis fan. My mom herself is a really big fan of Buddy Guy. She still is. We have a little Buddy Guy statue in our house taken from the buddy guys home bar in Chicago.

I’m a really big fan of jazz and blues, even though never managed to become a full time jazz musician.
But somehow, even though it’s not a part my mom’s or dad’s musical life, somehow I decided to go start listening classical music.
Opera, in particular.

TR in Conversation with Kemal:
So tell me a little bit about your experience with audio description,

Kemal:
what if I tell you I’ve never experienced an audio description till I became a media professional.

— Swoosh that builds up and leads into a crash.

TR:
What?

— Music begins: “Dance Noir” By Kemal Gorey, a bright melodic tune consisting of a mix of various string instruments.

Kemal:
My career in the states starts in 2020 with the competition that I won, ran by Abel artist Foundation, founded by Steven letnes. I applied for his content for the contest that able artist foundation runs.

Somehow I recognize as a grand prize winner. There were some prizes linked with some publishers a couple of years past and I found myself in a project, working with Steve, a project called possibilities. You were also part of it, right?

TR in Conversation with Kemal:
I was interviewed for it.

TR:
It’s a documentary produced by the American Foundation for the Blind. They speak with a variety of different Blind people in all sorts of fields. Several are part of the RMM Radio family including Satauna Howery who narrates the open audio description.

Kemal:
That was the first time I’ve experienced the audio description because I’ve been working in the project as an additional music writer and Steve’s assistant, the composer assistant.

TR:
Composing music for a film with open audio description means you’re going to have to compose music that takes the AD into consideration.

Kemal:
I watched that documentary like, 1000 time.

Being visually impaired, legally blind, can put you in weird situations where, because the doctors keep telling you, you should using your site, but at the same time you same doctors keep telling you need accessibility, equipment and tools, all right, but where is the balance?

You are the one who should find the balance in your life and it can be tricky. Also, we really don’t have audio description. Let’s say the audio description was not that popular in Turkey or not existed at all at all, mostly back in the days.

Thanks to my private school education, I have a fairly acceptable English so I can watch movies in English, but I never tried an audio description. I saw audio description as an option, but with the possibilities, I experienced that for a long time, and then I utterly understand how comforting It is then, how crucial it is, because you never thought something’s important, until you experience it all by yourself.

TR:
Today?

Kemal:
Audio description should be the part of the core production budget. It shouldn’t be optional. It should be a requirement, a core budget item, like, we need music in the movie. We need dialog mix in the movie. . We need audio description in a movie or any kind of motion picture, that should be the rule, because the blind community have every right to access all media content in an accessible way.

TR in Conversation with Kemal:
Absolutely, I will not fight you on that. (Laughs)

Kemal:
(Laughing) You should not!

(The two laugh.)

TR in Conversation with Kemal:
Now that you are aware of it after possibilities, do you access more content with audio description today?

Kemal:
I can’t say that because, I still have some sight.

My usual habit is still consuming the visual content with my eyes, but I’m also getting older, so I don’t know what future holds, but it’s really comforting and heartwarming that at least there is an option.

TR:
Options are great! Kemal, actually did take the opportunity to listen to audio description, not as a consumer, but as a creator.

Kemal:
actually, it was a really interesting, strange, challenging, definitely, maybe the most inspiring project that I have ever been. It’s called, how great is your darkness? A silent movie about disability culture and how medical institutions treats the disabled persons and why the ableism is really strong in that field.

It’s like a art house short movie established by seven short stories. Each one of them reflects different problems in the medical industry.

TR:
The film is currently making the film festival rounds and will hopefully arrive on a streaming platform at some point for us all to see.

Kemal:
A Finnish director, Jenny Iulia, please forgive me that I cannot pronounce her really long last name. She warned me not to try that.
She decided to create an audio description for that movie.

A Finnish person who is the father of the Finnish audio description scripted the audio description. They recorded it. She decided she wants music in that movie, but the music will be sync with the other description.

TR:
Yulia decided, she didn’t want the composer of the music for her film to actually see the film. Rather, she wanted to music to be composed based on the audio description.

Kemal:
It’s a comedy movie.
There’s a lot of sync points, like cartoonish sync points. Well,

TR:
A comedy? Not the first genre that comes to mind when thinking about ableism in medicine, but ok.

I haven’t seen the film, but if you’re not clear about sync points, think slap stick. You need the music to be timed with the pie in the face or the fall after slipping on the banana peel.
— Slapstick music

Kemal:
it’s a real comedy.

TR:
The challenges go beyond hitting the comedic sync points.

Kemal:
One, because it’s a silent movie, there’s no dialog. Everything is told by gestures and that’s why all the description never stops, talking, talking, talking. (Fades away)

So for a Media Composer, it’s a nightmare, because since the voiceover never stops, how I score something has its own taste, has its own part, but will not fight with the voiceover, which never stops.
But the bigger challenge is the director told me that she will combine the score, the audio description and the picture after I deliver everything to her. And I was like, okay, then give me the picture so I can catch all sing points, and it will be done. She told me , nah, I won’t give you anything, score the music, and we will see whether or not it will fit with the picture.

TR in conversation with Kemal:
She’s definitely a comedian.

(The two laugh.)

Kemal:
She’s a multidisciplinary artist. And I still can’t believe how inspiring she is. She took all the time talk about all the allegories that she used, all the reflections, all the sub context, and she was always accessible for questions and more debates in terms of how the music should be. And she didn’t give any hint what kind of music that she wants.

TR:
Fortunately, she hinted that she wanted the music to sound fancy. By that she meant classical.

Kemal:
I scored a Hollywood style comedy score, all the bells and whistles, all the wind, strings, brasses, percussion, everything.

TR:
The director’s plan was to move a few things around if necessary to sync the score to the film.

Kemal:
She called me eventually And she was like, Kemal, guess what? I said what? I decided to not change anything. I will place all cues as they are. I was like, Okay, why did you decided to do that? She was like, you will see. I will send you the picture.

TR:
He watched it. And of course, like any artist, he found some technicalities he could change, but all in all…

Kemal:
The score nailed it. It was like a magical moment for me, because I never tried to do that in my entire life. I used to work with picture. I’m proud of myself. It just worked with just audio description. And it’s a silent movie Thomas.

TR:
Audio description is more than entertainment. It’s empowering.

Kemal:
it was my proudest moment on my professional career, I nailed a ridiculous challenge, and it opens a whole new door in my creativity and in the world of creativity, I assume because now we have a proof of concept that a Blind Media Composer can score a motion picture thing. It can be a short movie, it can be a feature film, it can be a cartoon. It can be anything, if there’s audio description that will be enough. And if you want to make it perfect, then provide some time codes, it will be perfect.

TR:
Octavia Butler wrote; “there’s nothing new under the sun.”

In 1979 Stevie Wonder released the album Journey Through the Secret Life of Plants. This was the score to the documentary titled Secret Life of Plants.

— Audio from the documentary…

Stevie, or some of y’all know I like to refer to him as my uncle Stevie, (a filtered voice remarks, “He’s not your uncle.) scored the film based on the description he was given of the films visuals; ahem, audio description.

This doesn’t take anything away from Kemal’s accomplishment . I share this to be factual and model the idea that we’ve been here y’all!
An awareness of our history, especially going beyond what we’re spoon fed, is inspiring and let’s us know it’s all possible.

TR in Conversation with Kemal:
What made Jenny Yulia choose you?

Kemal:
She wanted to work with a blind composer and the creator team found me because I published an article in blind new world in beginning of 2024.

TR:
I’ll link you to that article in this episode’s blog post at ReidMyMind.com.

Kemal
Then we connected on Zoom. And something clicked between Yulia and I, and I knew that it will be hell of a journey with her. And it really was

TR in Conversation with Kemal:
You have a great energy, bro. So I can see why people would click with you.

Kemal:
it’s very kind of you, thank you so much for that.

TR in Conversation with Kemal:
You mentioned that this accomplishment open the door for creativity. Yes, we can score animation. We can score movies. Does it go beyond that for you?

Kemal:
Actually, yeah. I want to focus on Western art music Impressionism, and expressionism. These are the two genres in the Western art music area and there are fathers of that, two genres, one with you, interpretate what you see. It can be a painting, it can be a sculpture, it can be anything. It can be even a kind of a story or poem.

— “Mona Lisa” Nat King Cole

TR:
I’ve been interested in sound designing image descriptions for various pieces of art including paintings and sculptures.
Rather than your straight vanilla reading of an image description, imagine how engaging an experience could be when
we combine a performed reading of a poetic image description with musical composition and sound design?

As Blind people, we aren’t going to have the same experience with visual art so why not strive for new experiences.

Kemal:
The music should serve the story, it’s like a sidekick to the story, and audio description, even though tells what’s going on
it will definitely fail to express all the allegories in it. And the music comes to help, because music tells whether or not it’s creepy, lousy, fictitious, Mystic, empowering, engaging, heroic, the music, the one which expresses the emotions, like anger, love, being desperate, outrage, or the expressions like, hilarious, annoying, embarrassing.

from a blind audience perspective, they will not be able to see the clouding, they will not be able to see the color grading because audio description has a limited time to tell what’s going on.

TR:
We’re talking about all of the small details in a scene whether static or moving. Could it be written? Yes. But is it always the most engaging?

Kemal:
The score can do those kind of things.
What if score tells the weather is cloudy and the woman, even though look pretty, she has something in her mind that makes her sad. An audio description will maybe express some of those, but will not be able to tell all of it. But music can express those things with the sounds that opens the whole new world of creativity to me.

TR in Conversation with Kemal:
What does the ad viewer need to know? Are we literate enough to be able to translate what you’re communicating musically?

I think what I really probably should say is that we need to pay more attention.

I’ll admit that I listen to the music and I listen to sound design and I get the vibe, but I don’t know if I always put it into context of what the story is saying.
I feel like I need to be paying more attention to that music, that sound design, and the AD. It’s a lot of work.

Kemal:
It’s not entirely your fault.

Maybe audio description might mask the score in some certain places. Maybe the director wants to go another route. Maybe they don’t want to use music at all. We should look at the masterpieces here. I think the most famous score, Star Wars.

TR:
Next time on Flipping the Script on Audio Description, we’ll explore sound design and music in movies.
What are some of the things we should know, how can we become more active listeners and maybe take a listen to some examples.

Not just for the sake of doing so but with the intention of making use of the other ways information is communicated in visual media. Creative ways that we as non visual consumers can explore and benefit from.

In addition to composing for film, Kemal has some top secret projects I look forward to learning more about in the future.

Kemal:
We’ve been working on a project with Lachi, my friend and colleague. I can’t tell more about it just yet, NDA’s.

There’s also something coming up. I just saw the papers in my email just before I connected here. It will be kind of a different project, that much I can tell. It won’t be a motion picture thing, it will be a theatrical. Takes place in New York.

TR in Conversation with Kemal:
If you’re gonna be in New York City, definitely let me know. I’m right there man.

Kemal:
I will definitely do that.

TR:
For Kemal, music helped him, in his own words, blend in. For some that may sound like hiding and perhaps at one point it was. But today, Kemal is clear about what that means to him.

Kemal:
In the past? It means, if people doesn’t get the clue that I have a site condition, then I will consider myself blended.

I think it kind of ruined my social life when I was young, and it kind of ruined my love life.
Now, blending is celebrating who you are.

Everybody, including myself accepts my identity. Everybody including myself celebrates it, because that’s who I am.

Thanks to my dear friend Steven Letnes, and thanks to ramped recording artists and music professionals with disabilities, thanks to all those, I’ve found a community. Now blending is celebrating who you are, celebrating your identity, celebrating that out loud. Hey, my name is Kemal and I identify as blind. And what’s up with that?

(The two proudly laugh.)

TR:
That’s right, what’s up with that. (Ouie!)

I respect that commitment to shouting out those who support you along the way, especially mentors and those in your community.

Check out this episodes blog post for links to both The Able foundation and RAMPD.
And of course I’ll link you to KemalGorey.com where you can check out more about Kemal and his music.

Kemal:
kilo, Echo, Mike, Alpha, Lima, golf, Oscar, Romeo. Echo, yankee.com.

TR:
As the kids used to say, Google him baby!

Find him on all social media platforms.

Kemal:
Everything KemalGorey, blue sky, Instagram, LinkedIn, IMDb and ramped also. All professional members have their profiles at RAMPD.

TR
This is right about the time when I let the guest know how much I appreciate the fact that they shared their expertise and time with the family.

I was inspired to do that a little differently now, check this out.

— Music begins: A piano synth loop that leads to a strong kick and driving beat.
TR:
In 2014 I introduced you to this podcast | It’s a passion project, that means all love, no cash
Over 10 years bringing you nothing but facts | my goal for this has always been impact!
I invite a guest, take a topic tailor it just for you | a disability perspective always shining through
Thanks to my guest for sharing your time with me, You’re official | Reid My Mind Radio Family… Raa!

Official, uh uh official | Official, uh uh official !
Official, uh uh official | Official, uh uh official
You’re Official! | Reid My Mind Radio Family!

Official, uh uh official | Official, uh uh official !
Now whose official? | Official, uh uh official
Kemal: Kemal Gorey
You’re Official! Reid My Mind Radio Family!

For all y’all thinking, hmmm, what can I do| I wrote a checklist so you can become official too
Sample: “One” Chuck D!
You just can’t be down if you don’t follow or subscribe | That’s the number 1 way to join this tribe!
Sample: “Two” Chuck D!
Shout it out! Tell all your friends and your foes | That’s the way we help each other when the podcast grows
Sample: “Three” Chuck D!
Buy merch, shirt or hoodie for yourself or your boo | Now look at that, you’re official too! Woo!

Official, uh uh official | Official, uh uh official !
Now whose official? | Official, uh uh official
You’re Official! Reid My Mind Radio Family!

Official, uh uh official | Official, uh uh official
I said who’s official? | Official, uh uh official
(Applause)
You’re Official! | Reid My Mind Radio Family!

There it is!

Follow or subscribe wherever you get podcasts!
You know how we do, right?
Transcripts and more are at ReidMyMind.com
And so there’s never, ever, ever, ever any confusion
That’s R to the E I
Sample: D! And that’s me in the place to be! Slick Rick
Like my last name!
— Reid My Mind Radio Outro
Peace

Hide the transcript

— Clock Ticking
TR:
–(Yelling in a Filtered, over modulated voice) Times up!

TR:
Well, that was then.

If you’re just tuning in and you don’t know what I’m referring to, please go back and listen to the episode last month titled, Time’s UP!

It’s the latest version of what I’ll call a protest by podcast. My own rage against the machine! That is, the systemic exclusion of narrators of color from audio description.

The episode helps me cope with the feelings; frustration, unfairness, pissed offativity.

— Filtered voice: (Well actually, that’s not a word!)

They know exactly what I’m talking about!

Sometimes you just got to get it out of your system.

today, I’m sticking to the place where I landed. That’s focusing on those who appreciate, respect and promote access that reflects the art of the global majority. Those who believe in tearing down the practice of exclusion in order to create audio description that truly centers the Blind Community… the full, rich, diverse community.

Y’all hear that….
— Birds chirping. begins to raise in volume.

It sounds like a new day is dawning.

I’m Thomas Reid the host and producer of this here podcast…
I told you before; (mischievous hmm) time’s up! There’s a real change underway.

— Reid My Mind Radio Intro

TR:
Allow me to introduce you to the team, out of the UK called Sound Scribe.
First up, Reid My Mind Radio family and alumni, Elaine Lillian Joseph.

Elaine:
I’m a black West Indian woman. Pronouns. She her from Birmingham (Woo!) in the UK. I am in my 30s. Today. I have my hair in a bun, and I wear glasses.
and I’m currently in London, and it’s actually sunny here, which is rare.

TR:
Rare, but fitting.
I told you, it’s the dawning of a new day.

Elaine:
My role in SoundScribe is as a co-founder and principally as an audio describer, also across the kind of project management as well.

So yeah, that’s me. Woo!

TR in conversation with SoundScribe:
And Elaine brought her own Woo. I like that.

Elaine:
I wasn’t going to wait for the Woo’s.

TR in conversation with SoundScribe:
I hear you! I bring my woos wherever I go.

TR:
Let’s keep those Woo’s going for Lesta. L E S T A.

Lesta:
I’m an East Asian woman. I’m Chinese, and I’m visually impaired as well. I’m quite pale with freckles. I have long black, sort of waist length hair in a ponytail. I’m always a little bit glamorous. I’m quite petite, athletic, and my pronouns are, she her.
For sound scribe. I’m basically a consultant. So, I comment on the audio description that is provided, or like I come in quite early to help the derivation of the audio description. And I basically complain a lot. I feel that’s my job, but I also comment on the actual performances as well, and the space that they do it in, as well as how they execute it.

TR:
Complaining can also be called quality control.
We’re talking about a member of the target audience who can provide helpful feedback on the script, narration and mix.
Improving the final product before release.

Next, meet Shivaangee.

Shivaangee:
Or you can call me Shiv. My pronouns are they and she and I am a person in my 30s with heritage from India.

I’m kind of light brown skinned, with black hair, dark eyes. I have two nose piercings in my left nostril. I’m wearing a necklace and more earrings, so some jewelry, and a green netted top for the heat today, and freshly, freshly shaved sides to my hair, which feel great.

I co-founded soundscribe with Elaine, though, I’d say Elaine kind of does a little bit more leadership of in a direction we’re going, and I sort of support with that And some of the project management as well.

I’m actually trained and work as a dance artist, and that’s a really fun collaboration to do with Elaine, because I guess I can bring a little bit of the embodied experience of moving and dancing, and Elaine brings a lot of experience in all thing’s audio description.

TR in conversation with SoundScribe:
shiv, tell me a little bit about how you got into AD.

Shivaangee:
A friend and choreographer called Mira Patel does a lot of work with blind, visually impaired, deaf and hearing-impaired communities in order to understand how Indian classical dance, which is what I’m trained in, and what she’s trained in, can be more accessible for these communities.

So, it was through coming on board to her work that I was trained as an audio describer.

Through that work, I felt like access and accessibility was something I could really relate to on other levels, in other ways that I have experience of marginalization and othering.

I just really deeply connected to the importance of accessibility and how everybody can benefit from disability justice, and it felt like a really foundational area that can inform;
How Indian classical dance can be made more accessible to people who don’t know what Indian classical dance is.
How dance can become more accessible.
How we can start to think about dance without prioritizing the visual sense.
How we can decenter sighted and non-disabled perspectives and dance.

TR:
Shiv isn’t the only dancer in SoundScribe.

Lesta:
I have a background in the arts, so I’m an architect and I’m also a dancer as well at the same time.

I understand space really well, and I understand movement really well.

TR:
Of course Lesta also brings her personal experience with audio description.

Lesta:
When I first became visually impaired as an adult, I started using audio description, and I was just really grumpy about it.

I use audio description with like films and TV and sometimes theater, but it’s just really bad.

I’m just grumpy about the fact that I have to watch so many things that are just really badly described, and therefore I don’t quite understand what’s going on

Because I’m in the UK, it’s called SI, sight impaired, or if your blind, it’s severely sight impaired. I’m Si, so I do have some sight.

It is a choice for me to use my eyes or not.

TR:
Lesta went on to say that the quality really does vary. Sometimes it’s better. But when it’s bad, it’s really bad!

Lesta:
I would prefer to go through the physical pain and also not understanding what’s going on than using audio descriptions.

TR:
Ouch!

TR in conversation with SoundScribe:
Okay, are you still grumpy today? (laughs) I mean about AD. Have you seen any improvement in the state of audio description and what you’re getting in a movie theater?

Lesta:
The difficulty is that quite a lot of film theaters don’t even provide it. So even if it was well done on a film, it’s not provided so you can’t even access it. I would say that is pretty problematic in the UK.

I use Netflix, and sometimes I go for the audio description. It is getting slightly better, so at least they are doing the work to actually describe it well, I just find it quite robotic, because I feel like audio description is effectively a performance. It’s reflection of the art form that you’re kind of viewing, whether it’s dance or theater, film, TV, it’s all part of the performance trip, because you’re kind of describing what you’re viewing.

It has to marry.

TR:
That’s a union between the content and the audio description.

— Sound of a door locking with a wooden latch.

— Music begins, a “house’ inspired, upbeat bouncy bass drum, with crescendo reverse cymbals and finger snaps as snares.

TR:
Now that we’ve met the individuals, let’s find out how they became SoundScribe.

Elaine:
so me and Shiv actually go back to Uni, and then a mutual friend of ours basically put us in touch, and was like, you’re an audio describer and you’re an audio describer.

Me and Shiv went to a dance event that was about audio description and then we went to a pub, and then we just bitched and complained.

Oh, we really have a lot in common, as audio describers, basically, but specifically as audio describers who aren’t white. So I really took a lot of solidarity from that, and I just felt like I had so many ideas, and it was really great to be able to have someone else who shared those ideas.

We joined forces, and we’ve kind of been growing since then.

TR:
Joining forces based on philosophies, yeh, I can get with that!

Elaine:
I really felt like we were just so aligned in terms of the philosophy we already had individually for our practices as audio description wanting to find like minded people. For me, it was really important to bridge that gap at that time, on a personal level, between the work that I was doing but also the audience that I was doing that work for.

At the time, I was working in TV, and I just really felt like to grow as an audio describer, I needed to be in contact with more blind folk, but also to grow as a art form, as a practice.

I just felt like that was the kind of missing key for me.

TR in conversation with SoundScribe:
What was it that made you feel as though it was important to be in contact with the community. So being in community, why was that important?

Elaine:
I guess I felt like the guidelines that I was given and that I kind of trained under, which are perfectly fine, but I just really felt like they had been shaped by sighted people, and that at some point it felt like maybe, maybe those voices had been lost and that voice just hadn’t Been really updated.

So I found that I was having conversations like when I was first on your podcast, we were just talking about describing race, for example, and just this idea that, like for blind users, that there’d be, like a default conception of who we’re describing, and that default is white. And I really felt like if we just had some voices who were Blind and people of color, then we would just cut through this need to have these endless conversations. I just really felt like, if these people were just in the room, then things would move so much faster.

With any craft, it just makes sense to include the end users as part of the production of the art.
I just think it utterly enriches it.
I think it cuts through any kind of biases that I will definitely have as like a sighted person. It broadens the kind of perspective of the audio description as well, like working. With you. Leicester is such a joy, because, literally, every single project I learned something new.

Leicester’s just pulled a really, a really sweet pose just highlight how angelic they are.

Lesta:
As a person that is both POC and disabled, I felt quite heard to be involved in the company as well, because existing as an intersectional person you’re effectively like an other of an other, and usually you’re sort of forgotten in many different kind of groups, because you’re kind of categorized as not quite that person in multiple ways. So usually your voice is forgotten.

So this was quite interesting, because my role and a bunch of other blind people was to just complain about stuff, and because I complained about stuff in a very ethnic way as well then I think they probably just picked up on it as well. So they’re kind of bitching in the cafe. Is the sort of the same mentality I have. So, yeah, it was just really wonderful to be heard. So thank you.

TR in conversation with SoundScribe:
I want to keep my facts straight. That wasn’t a cafe, that was a pub!

Lesta:
pub, yes,

Elaine:
exactly.

TR:
Y’all picking up on this idea of bitching or complaining?

It’s identifying the problems. As Lesta noted, it’s centering your full experience as a consumer.
Two different consumers with varying backgrounds will more than likely have two separate experiences, that’s cool! What’s not cool is deciding that one is the standard.

So my urging to the community… complain away!

First we complain, then we make change.

— Sound of two glasses clinking in a bar as in a toast!

TR in conversation with SoundScribe:
Okay, so let’s move into your philosophy, your approach to audio description.

Elaine:
I was just thinking about some of the words that might really motivate us.
One of them is
generative.

So the idea that audio description can actually generate art.

For example, audio description led movement workshops. Sometimes they’re like, warm ups or warm downs, and often in those workshops, choreography is created with the cast, with the choreographer, with the rehearsal director, and then sometimes that choreography even makes it into the show itself, which is the most exciting outcome of those kinds of workshops.

So really seeing audio description as a catalyst for performance making.

TR:
Elaine, Lesta and Shiv make up the core of SoundScribe, but part of their philosophy is to work with all sorts of folks from the Blind community.

Elaine:
Providing consultancy, training, providing sustainable jobs as well.
for example, sound engineers.

We work with a full range of different people, but wanting that to be focused as like blind led a big thing for us is anti objectivity, and by that, like we don’t ever want to kind of patronize anybody. We’re not making audio description that tells people how to think, but we do want to be proud and open about our subjectivity in our work.

That’s what feels really exciting about this.
Collaboration and creating something that is global majority led, and anti ableist as well.

Elaine:
So as Shiv mentioned, de centering sight as the primary way of accessing art.

Just trying to think about different ways of accessing art.

TR:
That can mean getting the artists, the content makers to think about the Blind audience, before the content is made.

Elaine:
When we come in from the beginning as audio describers, from the beginning of whatever the project is, it might be like a film that hasn’t been filmed yet. It might be a painting that hasn’t been painted, or a dance show.

We can help to shape a piece of art that is from the beginning thinking about blind and visually impaired people.

The exciting element for me working now within SoundScribe, is getting to work on shows that I actually want to go and see not working at the end, where we have a fixed product and we have to mold or do description to fit in, because then basically 10 times out of 10 that project has not been created with blind people in mind.

coming in from the beginning, I think is a really big part of our ethos, and sort of really privileged actually, to have found enough artists that also want to work in that way.

Shivaangee:
In contrast to a lot of audio describers currently out there, I think we also want to kind of treat audio description as a practice rather than just a service. So by practice we mean that it’s like a live and evolving thing where Elaine I and Lesta are well, and especially Elaine and I are kind of constantly re evaluating, like, well, what are the goals of this? What are the principles underpinning this? What are we trying to get to? What’s our ideal vision? So there’s a sense of it being a dynamic thing that is not just a fixed service, but we evolve as audio describers, and we evolve the way we do things, but also in terms of practice. It’s like a holistic thing. It informs our principles of;
how we work.
how we are with each other
how we work with the artist
what kind of things we’re advocating for beyond just having audio description,

And that feels maybe quite important to our philosophy as a collective.

TR:
Think of SoundScribe as providing tailored, custom AD. They measure each individual project separately and design the AD experience based on the objectives of the content.

It feels like it really serves the art. Enabling the SoundScribe team to grow as artists themselves.

Shivaangee:
We have so many conversations with new clients, where by just speaking to a potential new client about their work and what they’re creating that we get excited about. Oh my gosh, we could actually offer a completely different kind of audio description for this work.

That’s another reason why Elaine and I work so well, as we get really excited about the possibilities of things we have not actually tried yet and have not experienced in terms of audio description.

(Shivaangee:
We did a project where we trialed for the first time having audio descriptions that’s actually takes a format of a dialog between Elaine and myself, rather than a one person scripted thing. So the thing that people were listening to was a. Conversation between Elaine and I as we were in the audience watching the show.

We’re developing a methodology for improvised audio description, because actually, we’re finding that improvised audio description works a lot better for dance shows that are more improvised than set choreography.

So I guess it’s also being really curious and open and excited about pushing ourselves in terms of what we can offer, and not letting ourselves kind of fall short of the possibilities that might exist.

Lesta:
It’s performative, it’s an art form, and it’s responsive to the art form that you’re trying to describe. So if the dance performance was improvised, then the way you describe it has to be improvised, because you have no idea what they’re going to move like. So that’s a skill in itself.

Shivaangee”
And requires a different kind of preparation and a different kind of contact with the creative team.

TR:
You might be wondering if this customized approach, where SoundScribe is wearing their subjectivity on their sleeve affects their clientele.

Elaine:
Shiv is smiling!

Shivaangee:
I’m ready for this response. Elaine,

Elaine:
We are very intentional about who we work with and what kinds of projects we want to work with. And we’re very aware, alert to language, for example, if we’re going to work with this client, then they are anti ableist and they are anti racist, and they really, truly understand what those two words mean and why it matters to us in the world of accessibility.

I feel quite lucky that we’ve found so many artists that we do want to work with in this way, and that a lot of the work that we’re doing is quite experimental audio description.

We’re not really doing much traditional theater shows. A lot of it really is, like quite Avant Garde in terms of our clients. So that feels really great.

Shivaangee:
There’s so much to say about the intersection of race and disability. I’m just like, where do we begin?

Thomas, I was listening to some of your podcasts, and I think you speak really eloquently about being black and blind. It’s really refreshing to hear someone speaking about that intersection, because I guess we want to work with people who understand what anti racism is and how like intersectionality, like manifests in disability.

You can still bring whiteness with you if you’re disabled, you can be making an accessible piece of work that’s actually not that culturally accessible to people of color.

I guess I feel inspired by giving artists of color the opportunity to create really accessible work that is accessible for disabled people.

I guess I have qualms about disability justice also being led often by white people. So it’s really inspiring and satisfying when we can work to bring high quality, accessible work to artists of color.

TR in conversation with SoundScribe:
Have you ever been in a situation where you’re approached by someone and they don’t meet your requirements. Are you? Like, we can’t work with you.

Shivaangee:
that happens quite frequently, and quite unsurprisingly, we get a sense of that very quickly.

We’ll get a sense of, this is not going to work out. It’s thankfully, often quite obvious.

Sometimes we have a sense of like we could work with this client. Not everybody’s going to be in the same place when it comes to justice and understanding your practice of justice.
And often we have a conversation around we could work with this client, it will probably be a bit challenging for us in these ways, and we might have to do some reiterating of these principles and education. But then Elaine and I turn to each other and we’re like, do we have the capacity for that right now? Or, like, does the remuneration of this project allow for that kind of work to be done? And if not, then fuck it that’s they can choose someone else.

Lesta:
from my perspective, sometimes it’s quite a good thing to actually partake in these sorts of things. I’m quite hardened, so my viewpoint is like, one way to deal with this sort of thing is to explode it from the inside, you know, once you’re in, just start having a go, see what happens. You know, because then they’re not used to it.

They obviously want to listen or have the good intention to it’s just that they’re not at that right place quite yet.

— Clock ticking

TR:
I’m telling y’all… times up!

TR in conversation with SoundScribe:
So you raised two projects, and I want to talk about that.
I’m very interested in the dialog AD. Can we start there?

Elaine:
so that’s a show that we’re actually going to do again, and I’m really, really excited, because hopefully we can come back with, like, basically, bigger, better tech.

It’s a really good example of an artist and producer who just got the vision from the beginning. They were like, such, yes, people anything that we needed, and that was the first time that we’d worked with Lesta as well.

It’s called Impact Driver. The artist is called Eve Stanton. And that was a show that featured live welding with a huge, massive welding container. It’s really awesome. I think five to six performers very, very improvised. Lots of solo work, duet work, writhing with metal to live musicians on opposite ends of the venue, playing guitar. So it was quite a loud experience, and because of where the container was, it meant that me and Shiv basically needed to be on opposite ends, especially because the performers were roaming, and you’d never know actually which path they take.

TR:
Ah, the idea of improvised AD makes even more sense in these circumstances.

Elaine:
It was also a really good example of leading ad workshop. It meant that the entire cast, then totally got it. They were like, Oh, this is what audio description is. They also started to think about their own choreography from a linguistic sense as well.

How can we name the things that we’re doing, which is really helpful for us, because that’s its own kind of audio description.

I would describe what I could see say in the front half of the stage, including in the welding container. And then Shiv was behind that, also describing. If a performer roamed beyond my sight line, then basically, Shiv would take over.

Performing it live, was really exhilarating.

Terrifying before the show starts, and then this calm just kind of descend, and you just go for it.

It felt really, dare I say punk. because the whole show felt really punked as well. So it was a kind of like loud, messy audio description.

Leicester came in at a super, super messy, moment, because we hadn’t actually tested hours at that point. And, yeah, it was really great.

I think we had maybe four or five visually impaired people who came along to that trial run and gave us some really, really invaluable feedback before the actual show.

Shivaangee:
Most of it was in darkness as well and four different speakers around the room. So it was very intense environment, even as a sighted audience member.

TR:
Sounds like another one of those situations where the AD could serve a broader audience.

TR in conversation with SoundScribe:
How are you all thinking about possibly using the back and forth aspect of it?
Are you thinking about ways where you can bring that into something else?

Shivaangee:
So we’re in conversations with a new client that we’ve not worked with before, and the work that they’re creating is all about visibility and invisibility of queerness, and it uses kind of a mirror and like a gray board as two key props in the work, where they use illusion and disappearing as A metaphor for their exploration.

There’s like the middle of the audience where you’ll get the Perfect Illusion. And then if you’re sitting anywhere, that’s not the middle of the audience, you will not benefit from that Perfect Illusion. So now they’re thinking, as they’re getting into staging, well how do we navigate this fact that 80% of the audience is not going to get our Perfect Illusion?

So in our conversation with them about audio description, we all came up with the idea of Elaine and I roaming the sets and kind of audio describing to each other, what we can see and what we can’t see as a way of really leaning into this thing of you’re not going to get a perfect view of what’s happening, and each person is going to get a slightly different view of the illusion.

They got really excited about how it can actually support their work and support this whole illusion that they’re trying to problem solve.

Lesta:
I think it’s like, the more different projects that basically you’re involved in, essentially, you can test out different ways of doing stuff. And if the clients are open, then you can just try it. It’s very experimental and very trial based. It’s quite exciting in that respect, because it’s the development of audio description as a entity that can be informed into sort of the general consensus as well.

Shivaangee:
We’re talking about the really optimistic experiences we’ve had where people, as Elaine said, have been like, yes, producers and yes, artists who have been like, we love this. We love the experimental, creative potential, body description. Let’s go all out. But I feel like that’s definitely not status quo in the industry and a lot of people just simply don’t have the budget.
They don’t have the capacity, time wise, in their creation schedule to give us that much play time.

So I’d say just to balance out, we do bump into a lot of no’s as well that like that sounds great for the future, but for this time round, we have this many days and this much money and this to work with.

It feels important to also name that these are optimistic scenarios where we find these wonderful artists,

TR:
Reality checks are necessary.

But these artistic, experimental projects will inevitably make their way into the mainstream.
Not all at once or as radical, but rather small aspects of them will show up here and there.

Access doesn’t have to be solely functional.
It can go beyond the access and do more.

Lesta:
When me and Shiv did many lifetimes, she sat next to me, and we were testing her audio description, and I was sort of saying, Oh, but like, and it was improvised as well. So she did a really great job in general. But like, they were like, seven dancers, and they all had really different characters and the way they moved, because I can still use some of my site, and I can still understand the blobs in front of me, sort of So I was like, this person kind of looks like a martial artist. He’s, like, really dynamic. This guy’s like, all over the place, like roaming around outside of this, the room and everything. And this one is kind of like really intimate, because it was all about grief, the whole the whole piece. And I said, you know, maybe the way you describe it, in your language and in how you deliver it can be different, depending on the solo, because it’s describing their intention of demonstrating grief of death in a very, very personal way. That was an example of, you know, like how the how audio description can be an art form itself, like that.

Shivaangee:
I remember you saying you wouldn’t have necessarily have come to watch the show if we hadn’t brought you as a consultant.

That makes Leicester’s work even more impressive.
In that show there wasn’t any explicit sense that each person was a character. It was a very personal, autobiographical kind of context each of these solos. So there’s actually Lesta picking up, as we were kind of speaking to each of the artists, and Lesta was there. Lesta picked up. And actually, don’t you think they all have quite different personalities, and they have different ways of manifesting in the space. Maybe we can start to assign certain characteristics in the way that you’re even describing them and the tone of voice you’re using, which was really insightful given that this is not the kind of work necessarily that you would choose to see or like choose to enjoy.

Lesta:
Otherwise, no, no. I mean, you know, also there was some sort of difficulties in the space as well. So, I was able to suggest things like, just generally in the actual building itself, because of my architectural background, but also in the space itself.

I think it helped anybody that else would like to come see it actually. You know, in terms of watching Dance, I used to love watching dance performances all the time after my site is progressive, basically, but I watch, I don’t really like watching things now, just because it’s, it’s, it’s not that accessible. And dance specifically is not very accessible, but it is becoming more so because of different. Methodologies. And so it’s actually getting more joyful to be able to go see these things. I think a lot of vision impaired people feel like that, like, you know, dance is just not an art form they can enter into or have a look at. But because it’s being done in this sort of experimental way, I think that’s very appropriate and like quite useful.

TR in conversation with SoundScribe:
great to hear. That’s great, especially coming from you Lesta, because you keep saying you’re grumpy.

I’m saying you’re not grumpy.

Shivaangee:
Though, I love that we using grumpy as like a euphemism.

Lesta:
It’s a very British word.

— Transition

TR:
I’m excited for SoundScribe. They recognize what’s really important to them. Like , community!

Elaine:
I don’t think we’re looking to explode in numbers at all. I really like the kind of intimacy of our collaboration.
There are many people who we collaborate with that people won’t necessarily know about.
There are so many sound engineers that we work with, ESL interpreters, other consultants. It’s such a beautiful network.

TR:
The importance of going beyond the work and supporting one another.

Elaine:
Lesta’s taking us out jazz dancing, which I’m very excited about.

Shivaangee:
Lesta is an incredible jazz dancer, yeah, so we can’t wait to, like, experience Leicester in that capacity as well.

Lesta
Oh I hyped up too much.

TR in conversation with SoundScribe:
I have a feeling Lesta is going to show and prove.

TR:
The value in dreaming.

Elaine:
My dream would be to bring on another narrator, maybe, or scripter who is blind?

TR:
The importance of equity.

Elaine:
I think there needs To be an industry shift.
For example, with theaters, they tend to work with the same people.
The way that I personally moved into that sector was through recommendations from other people who were working in those theaters basically and couldn’t do a job, and then passed it on.

It is definitely quite cliquey in the UK. I don’t think that venues will really take a risk on a new person unless they come with a recommendation, and those recommendations are from mostly white, middle class women.
I think there’s a bit of gatekeeping in the industry, even when people are trained, even when you have a whole cohort, there could be like 20 of us that are all trained and ready to go, then the door is kind of already shut.

I feel like no one really wants to kind of admit that, because then you have to give up work. It’s a hard economy, people are scared.
They don’t want to do that.

TR:
It doesn’t have to be just a dream.

(Elaine:
I would love for us to just get a bunch of funding and train some people. And also join forces with a venue so that we are guaranteed we are the in house audio describers, and now we’re going to bring in seven different people who are all going to get to have a go at what you’re describing, that to me would be like, Yeah, that’ll be a future goal.

We’ve got many plans, Thomas, we’ve got plans!

Shivaangee:
I think the discourse is also important. I don’t know what it’s like in the US, but in the UK, there’s just so much tiptoeing around race. People will not talk about it unless you bring it up.
It’s really important just to keep naming that, just to keep bringing white people’s attention to race.

Are you employing anybody else in your creative team that’s not white?
Often we are the only people on the wide creative team that are global majority.
and sadly, it’s kind of important to keep naming it for people so that they are aware of the subjectivities they’re bringing into the work and who they’re giving opportunities too.

TR:
And finally, recognizing the importance of gratitude.

Elaine:
I feel really, really lucky to be in this space.

TR:
I couldn’t let the conversation end without asking Lesta, about her thoughts on some current AD topics.

I really liked her perspective on how TTS further reduces that human connection and how important that is especially after vision loss.

Lesta:
When you start to lose your sight, you start to lose not just your sight, but the sociability associated with it, the connection to other humans, looking at each other, knowing where everyone knows and everything, and not being able to maybe go out as much or do stuff as you wanted to you used to, especially those who weren’t born blind. So the connection to a human is really desirable. And you know, going to shows and having a sort of live audio description or like someone speaking, you start to get that kind of connection. Because when you actually go to a show as a sighted person, you go to a show live because you want to be connected to, say, the dancer or the art, the actor in front of you. Otherwise you just watch it on TV.

TR:
Even the technology of closed audio description can affect that connection for Lesta.

Lesta:
When I wear a headset, it just cuts out my ability to understand the background noise and the footsteps of the dances, the sound of wind as they move past. These are the things that you lose that are like humanistic so I tend to veer away from technology.
in terms of audio description, I prefer to be present in the space.

TR:
And, on the subject of authentic representation in AD narration?

Lesta:
Well, that is an interesting topic, isn’t it?

If you go back again to the fact that it’s a performance, I would say that it’s a reflection of the art form. So it has to be appropriate and relevant, it’s performative. It’s not just like a service at the end where you’re just saying a load of stuff that’s describing the whole art piece.

TR:
While she is all in for cultural appropriate casting, she identifies the related problem faced by narrators of color in audio description.

Lesta:
And actually, every profession under the sun, not just audio description.

A person of color, is quite often put in a box, pigeonholing in the UK, so you only do these types of jobs. I feel like that with race, but I also feel like that with my visual impairment. Like, it’s intersectional as well, right?

A person of color or a person who is disabled can work in these specific type of fields, where it’s culturally competent and appropriate, but also can work in other aspects of everything. So Elaine can go and do her Marvel show. That’s totally cool like if she wanted to, because the thing is, is that it’s about like ability as well. These two women are great audio describers. It’s not like there’s nothing to do with their ethnicity or the way they look, it’s just their skill level. So they should be appreciated for that.

TR:
Well, I can tell you I appreciate Elaine, Lesta and Shivaangee… SoundScribe!

If you’re in the UK and want to work with SoundScribe or just let them know you think they’re dope, head on over to there website

SoundScribe.co.Uk.

TR in Conversation with SoundScribe:
Well, Elaine, you already know Lesta Shiv after every episode, for those who come onto the podcast and they share their information, they share their time and share with the family, I gotta let y’all know that you’re now an official part of the Reid My Mind Radio Family!

Shivaangee:
Thank you so much for inviting us into this conversation. It was a privilege.

TR:
I really enjoyed that conversation.

I have a feeling we’ll be hearing more from SoundScribe in the future. They’re doing cool stuff and our philosophies are aligned.

Anti racist, anti ableist… anti hate!

You can’t say you want the world to be those things without being intentional. So what are you doing in your space?

Let me know!

Hit me up at ReidMyMindRadio@gmail.com.

I hope you all will continue rocking with Reid My Mind Radio and subscribe or follow wherever you get your podcasts.

You know, we have transcripts and more over at ReidMyMind.com.

Only one way to get there…
I’m mean, you can take a car and put your luggage in the boot, take the tube, or ride the lift to the top floor,
but you’ll still need to spell it right….

that’s R to the E I D!

— Sample: “D! And that’s me in the place to be”, Slick Rick

Like my last name
— Reid My Mind Outro

Peace!

Hide the transcript

Music begins
THOMAS: Welcome to the Blind-Centered Audio Description Chats. These are the edited recordings of the Blind-Centered Audio Description Live Chats!
CHERYL: The live is the most fun part! We get together, we start with a question, and then we invite up anybody from the audience who wants to come and chat with us, agree, disagree, shed light on something that we hadn’t thought about before, which is Nefertiti’s favorite. [electric whoosh]
NEFERTITI: I’m Nefertiti Matos Olivares, and I’m a bilingual professional voiceover artist who specializes in audio description narration! I’m also a fervent cultural access advocate and a community organizer.
CHERYL: I’m Cheryl Green, an access artist, audio describer and captioner.
THOMAS: And I’m Thomas Reid, host and producer Reid My Mind Radio, voice artist, audio description narrator, consultant, and advocate.
[smartphone selection beeps]
CHERYL: Recording now!

NEFERTITI: Well, hello. This is Nefertiti Matos Olivares, and this is our first time that we’re doing a bit of a hybrid session and the first time we are presenting some content, sort of cross-pollinating, some work that we do with the Blind-Centered Audio Description Chat series that Cheryl Green, Thomas Reid, and I have been collectively working on for a while now, and also, the work that we do by way of the Social Audio Description Collective, or SADC, where we actually create and carefully craft, from the writing to the blind QC, the narration, the sound design, all of it, some culturally competent audio description in English and Spanish and other languages. So, if you don’t know about SADC, check us out. We are the Social Audio Description Collective. And if you don’t know about our previous offerings at the Blind-Centered Audio Description Chat series, you can check that out too by way of Thomas Reid’s Reid My Mind Radio. That’s all R to the E I D, like his last name, y’all!
THOMAS: [chuckles]
NEFERTITI: On his podcast feed as well. Wow. I am here, and I am happy to be here. And we have Thomas with us. We have Cheryl with us. We have Oliver Baker, the writer of the audio description for the two films that we will be watching and listening to today. And we have Carmen, Carmen Papalia with us.
THOMAS: So, we’re gonna show two films, and then we’re gonna talk to Carmen about the films, talk a little bit about what led into creating the films, talk a little bit about the AD, and we wanna hear from y’all too. So if there’s questions about the films that you wanna ask Carmen, you’ll have an opportunity to do that, or if you wanna ask or make a comment on the audio description, you can do that too.

Editors Note:
THOMAS: Quick note, we’re not including the audio of the film in this episode, however, you can go on over to this episode’s blog post on ReidMyMind.com and I’ll link you there.
Then come back and enjoy the conversation with both film maker and AD production team.

Ok, here we go, back to the episode!!

THOMAS: So, I think it’s time to welcome Carmen Papalia to the Zoom room.
NEFERTITI: [imitates air horn]
CARMEN: [chuckles]
THOMAS: And maybe Carmen, if you wanna introduce yourself, tell folks who you are, tell us a little bit about who you are and what you do.
CARMEN: Yeah, for sure. It’s Carmen speaking. I’m calling in from the stolen land of the Musqueam, Squamish, and Tsleil-Waututh people, colonially known as Vancouver. I’m in my room right now. I’m, yeah, I’m wearing maybe one of the same caps as in the film, a brown sort of wool cap, and a colorful button shirt with short sleeves today. I’m not sure which colors, unfortunately!
THOMAS: [chuckles]
CARMEN: Sorry. But know that they are vibrant and festive, I call myself a non-visual artist. I make mostly participatory projects. I do performance, installation. I do curating as well. And this project, Impaired, is a co-production and collaboration with my brother Antonio. And he’s not able to be here today ‘cause he’s sick, unfortunately. But yeah, it’s been a joy to work with him on this project. He’s also a macro photographer, too. So, I can talk a little bit about the work that we did with the Social Audio Description Collective around the macro photos as well. But this film series is something that we got some COVID-era grant funding for by the Canada Council. And the films were recently just in an exhibition in Zurich. It was an exhibition called Interdependencies about various forms of care. And these films were shown in a functional grow room that my brother designed and built. Well, he had help building it. The production team at the museum was amazing and was able to put everything together to our specs. It was like a replica of the grow room that we have here in Vancouver, but it was made to be wheelchair accessible for the exhibition. And it was like a presentation space for these videos and as well as my brother’s macro photos of the cannabis life cycle.
THOMAS: Very cool. Very cool. Could you talk a little bit about what led to the creation of this film?
CARMEN: Yeah, I think it was this kind of deep collaboration that me and my brother had developed just around my pain management and the growing of medicinal cannabis through Access to Cannabis Program through Health Canada. And I think it was just interesting as we were digging into this project of like, how do we set up a grow so my brother, who is low vision, can manage it? We were just doing this, I guess, problem solving, as you do when you just jump into something. How is this gonna work? And I think we wanted to show that process a bit.
But there was also this wonderful thing that happened when my brother started growing cannabis for me, too, is that we got to talk a lot more about disability and my brother’s vision loss, too. And as you saw in the film, he just recently sort of picked up a cane, and he’s still kind of like in that space of when to use it, if he should use it. And I just felt like this experience really brought us together. My family is very much involved, too, in the processing of the cannabis. So we have these trimming parties, and we’ll listen to some of the same tunes that you played today, [laughing] Thomas.
THOMAS: [laughs]
CARMEN: And order some pizza and trim cannabis together. And it just became this space for us to explore all these things that we were excited about and maybe wanted to explore, like tactility, like, how does that play into this process of growing cannabis, and yeah. My brother, he developed a photo series out of this process, too. And it was really a space for him to, you know, come back to his photo practice and make photos that he was really proud of that he could include in the show. I just think it’s just been a generative space for us that we wanted to show to others.
There was some reference to hallucinations in those videos. One of the longer-term goals is for my brother to actually breed a variety of cannabis that activates my visual hallucinations. So, I have quite vibrant and active hallucinations connected to my visual condition. Thomas hosted myself and a few artists on Reid My Mind talking about them With certain kinds of cannabis, these hallucinations are even more amplified, and they take on different characteristics! Through our research, my brother’s found there are a handful of cannabis varieties that are known hallucinogenic strains. And so, we’ve got our hands on a few of those, and we’ve grown a few. And we’ve made concentrates out of them, and I’ve kind of tested on myself. And they’re usually, you know, the ones that I really love are varieties that have a sort of psychedelic effect but also are good pain relievers.
I mentioned my pain condition. I have sickle cell anemia. So, yeah, I have a lot of pain that cannabis actually is really helpful for. And prior to transitioning onto cannabis, I was on Dilaudid. It was just a very different experience. My life was a lot different before I transitioned to cannabis. And, now for the most part, I mean, I still use Dilaudid, you know, when I’m having an intense crisis that might bring me to hospital or debilitating. But for the most part, I use cannabis and yeah, and some psilocybin as well, so, yeah.
THOMAS: Very good. You know, it’s interesting you mentioned the music at the beginning because I was looking for medicinal cannibal songs, cannabis songs. [laughs]
CARMEN: Mmhmm.
THOMAS: And I didn’t find any!
THOMAS and CARMEN: [delighted laughter]
CARMEN: I know. You don’t really hear people talking about getting medicated, do you?
THOMAS: No, you don’t!
THOMAS and CARMEN: [laugh again]
CARMEN: But yeah. I mean, there should be. Maybe there’s some awesome crip hip-hop artists that maybe can get into that.
THOMAS: Yeah, absolutely. Absolutely. It’s a market.
NEFERTITI: Yeah, maybe a participant today might have something for us, maybe.
THOMAS: [chuckles] Yeah. I want you to go back a little bit because you mentioned the macro photography. Can you describe it? I have a feeling many people might not be familiar with what that is.
CARMEN: Yeah. Totally. And I’ll describe it as much as I know through the process. It’s a very technical way of capturing, well, an image. And so, what you’re doing is you’re using some lenses that give you a super zoomed-up view of what you’re taking a photo of, and it kind of turns into something else altogether at that such a zoomed-in sort of view. And so, my understanding is that you take hundreds of photos that kind of get pulled together on the computer into like a composite, basically, that is a super close view of the subject. And my brother was taking photos of the cannabis lifecycle from seed to flower.
And so, some of these, like, if you can imagine a cannabis bud, and you know that the medicinal part is the oil or resin on the bud, if you take a photo, a macro photo of that, these little blobs of oil or resin, you can see them. They’re called trichomes. And they kind of look like, and I think this was the magic of Oliver described them as like a mushroom kingdom or something. They just look like this world unto itself. So, I think my brother really wants to bring people into this subject matter, medicinal plants and mushrooms and the subjects that he’s drawn to. And he said he doesn’t want people to pressure people to see something in his images. Like, you know this pressure to see. I felt that, too, as my vision has changed over the years, especially when I’m in a medical setting. Like, “can you see this?” Like, we’re testing what you can see. My brother really wants people to have a space where they can see what they want and really make their own stories about what they’re seeing as well in his images.
THOMAS: Mm.
CARMEN: Which was, yeah, which was really lovely when we were able to collaborate with you all on the description. Because it was a very involved process where, which not involved in that it was too involved. I think it was appropriately involved because we got to have conversation, me and Antonio, about what he saw and how he would describe it. So, I’m using a screen reader. I heard Oliver’s note coming through.
THOMAS: Oh. [laughs]
CARMEN: Which was that Cheryl, it was Cheryl’s magic who, Cheryl described the trichomes as the mushrooms and the mushroom kingdom. So, just clarifying there.
THOMAS: Why did you come to SADC? Like, was there something specific? Yeah.
CARMEN: [delighted laugh] I mean, you are the superstars of audio description all in one place. So, I mean, it’s kind of hard to go anywhere else. [laughs]
NEFERTITI: High praise! Thank you.
CARMEN: I mean, I’ve known Cheryl since probably 2010 or 2011, too. And I’ve been a lover of Thomas’s work for a while. And yeah, I just thought for this production to really explore what that collaborating with you might turn into. And I thought we had a really great experience. So yeah. Thank you.
THOMAS: Cool. Cool. I didn’t mean that to sound like a softball pitch there, but.
THOMAS and CARMEN: [laugh]
NEFERTITI: No, but please take it, because it’s very true. It’s very true.
THOMAS: I will take it, but also just curious, because you and Cheryl, you all sort of met, if I’m correct, let me know, around audio description. Is that correct?
CHERYL: Carmen is the person who introduced me to audio description. One of my short films was playing. I was so proud of the captions. “Yay, I have a captioned film.” And I heard somebody whispering through my whole film. I’m very distractible, and I was like, oh, rude! What is going on here? And afterward I asked somebody who were the rude people talking through my whole film? Oh, I’m the center of the universe. Why are people whispering? That’s not the literal words I said.
CARMEN: [laughs]
CHERYL: But somebody explained to me that, well, the film didn’t have any audio description, and so somebody was whispering and describing the visuals to Carmen. And it was a face, face plant, face palm, whatever you call it. I planted my palm on my face. So that was my introduction to audio description. And then Carmen, I don’t know where you lived then, but we apparently lived on the same bus route.
CARMEN: Yeah.
CHERYL: And somebody encouraged me to walk with you to the bus stop ‘cause maybe you weren’t familiar with that neighborhood.
CARMEN: Oh, you were my way to get home. I wouldn’t know how to get home otherwise! [laughs]
CHERYL: Except that we got so lost! Even though I’d been riding that bus for ten years at that point. I get so confused sometimes. And anyway, we had a lot of laughs about getting lost. But you were so gentle and encouraging in talking about, you know, there’s a thousand points of entry to access. Pick one and start there. You were not judgmental. You enjoyed my film, I think, even though it wasn’t described.
CARMEN: Yeah, yeah. For sure.
CHERYL: So, that’s how I got started. And many years later when you started asking me to do audio description for your stuff, I was pretty blown away.
CARMEN: Aw.
THOMAS: I love that story. Cheryl, do you wanna talk a little bit about the process of describing images? The idea that Carmen and Antonio laid out about wanting folks to be able to see whatever it is they see, just real quick, I think that’s the way I think about our hallucinations as well, Carmen.
CARMEN: Mmhmm, mmhmm.
THOMAS: Just it’s really interesting. So, Cheryl, yeah. Talk about that.
CHERYL: Carmen has a wonderful technique that was developed in the Simon Fraser University Pandemic Is a Portal project, which is the phone call. So, the phone call came from this idea that, you know, if you’re trying to write an image description, imagine you’re on the phone with somebody and telling them what it is. And Carmen took that ten levels higher when we were working on that project and literally did a phone call [laughs] with, I think it was Heather.
CARMEN: Mmhmm.
CHERYL: And the two of you recorded your phone call, and you talked about not only literally what was in the picture, but your concepts and your feelings and your emotions. And you gave me that, and I transcribed it, and I used it to build the image description.
So, for the macro photo series, you and Antonio did the same thing. You recorded these calls for me, which was amazing because I didn’t know what a trichome was before. So, y’all used technical terms. And then very beautifully, you would ask Antonio a lot of questions. That’s one of the things that is so exciting to the collaboration. You would ask him to share some details, and then I did research online, learned a lot more about cannabis. And I used your phone call transcript as the basis for writing the description, so that I knew I was getting what was important to y’all, but that you let me build also whatever else I wanted to.
THOMAS: That’s pretty cool. When you think about describing an image, you would just see, oh, like the only context you have is the image. But no, you build off of other things as well. So, that’s cool. Oliver, what about you, sir? What kind of research did you have to do to get into describing cannabis? [laughs]
CHERYL: [chuckles]
OLIVER: Ah, research! I think it was just here and there. Sometimes it was just a question like, that hat that Carmen’s wearing, whether it was fleece or wool or whether I could call it a beanie or something else. And sometimes it was after the fact. Like, I guessed that in one of the opening scenes that a bud was being rolled, and the leaves were being pressed against it just to narrow it up. But it was really just some leaves and I guess some b-roll, in effect. And so, I had to change that. Not research beforehand. ‘Cause Carmen, you were doing a lot of traveling during that time, so I couldn’t be in real-time contact about any question I had necessarily.
CARMEN: Yeah, but it was that back-and-forth process that I think we fine-tuned a couple things. I really loved your all’s process, too, for getting the scripts to where they could, to narration, too.
OLIVER: Yeah, I think this was probably an unusual project in my experience in the amount of and the level of evolution that happened after I submitted my draft. One thing was that the animator, Heather Kai Smith, came into the discussion pretty late. And so, some important points that she made reached me late, and so I was making changes, I guess, mainly to the pre-show, but a little bit during the show based on that.
CARMEN: It’s not the ideal way to go about developing an audio described piece. Like, some, the footage was shot before we looped you in. The animation has to be done after the video is firmed up and complete. And, yeah, it’s just, it’s a wacky timeline, I guess, that we were working on. And we were also trying to meet the deadline of the exhibition opening and the delivery date for that exhibition in Zurich. I’m continuously apologizing ‘cause I feel like I, you need, like, double the amount of time to do this well. And I mean, it’s done amazingly, and super—
OLIVER: I think some applause is due, too, because we had a conversation with Eric that led to something that never happens, which was, he introduced a little bit of a gap. He changed the editing a little bit to accommodate just a very brief line of audio description that we wouldn’t have been able to include otherwise, to make sure that blind and low vision audience members would understand what was happening during the important scene down the steps. And if things had gone the way they usually do, and with another filmmaker, with other filmmakers, that adaptation wouldn’t have happened.
THOMAS: How much of a change was it actually, Oliver, in terms of time? Like, how much time did you actually need to make that difference?
OLIVER: I think I asked for less than a second [chuckles] in one place and a little bit more than a second in another place.
CARMEN: [laughs]

OLIVER: We had an interesting kind of negotiation about where they’d be inserted because Eric sort of cherished a particular pause for the suspense, and for him, the AD voice coming in there would’ve interfered with that. So, he put the pause somewhere else, but it worked out fine. But the interesting conversation, which kind of gets into, I don’t know, an unusual amount of gray area of audio description was everybody had a different opinion about it. The filmmaker, Eric, who wasn’t used to watching films with audio description, felt the narration was a distraction. Thomas, I think you were not distracted, and you appreciated the extra information that would’ve been provided there. And then Antonio, who is losing vision and using a cane, but not so, still new to using a cane, for him, he actually appreciated the silent pause that Eric wanted to have in there because it was not old hat to him in the same way it might’ve been to you, Thomas, as more of an expert cane user.
THOMAS: Yeah.
OLIVER: That affected where we put the narration.
THOMAS: Mm, which goes into our approach in terms of audio description and that blind-centered approach, right? Why would we tailor the AD to someone who’s not going to use AD? But it’s so funny how often that’s a big part of what we do when working with filmmakers, right? Just kind of explaining that and explaining what we mean by a blind-centered approach. And that’s a perfect example of it right there, so. Very good.
CARMEN: There was something really interesting in the making of the installation at the museum in Zurich, too. Because these films were audio described, we could watch them outside of the grow room, because even when we were outside of the installation, we could still hear the AD and watch the film, which was really nice.
THOMAS: [happy laugh] That’s access!
CARMEN: Mmhmm, mmhmm.
THOMAS: Very nice.
CARMEN: I’d be happy to answer any questions about the art stuff, but also cannabis stuff, too, and my, like, yeah, whatever you wanna know!
THOMAS: Did you go back to retraining for O&M? [laughing] Did you get any more training?
CARMEN: No. I mean, I feel like my brother can give me some pointers, but I’m pretty stuck in my ways of using the cane like I like to. [chuckles]
THOMAS: Yes. And you use a black cane. Your cane is black? Is that the one you always use?
CARMEN: I do. Yeah, yeah, yeah. I just order them without the tape on them, and they’re graphite canes from Ambutech in Winnipeg. They have these silvery kind of joints that, yeah, hold the segments together, yeah.
THOMAS: Mmhmm. The collapsible parts there? Yeah.
CARMEN: Yeah, yes. Yeah. And a wooden handle. Yeah.
THOMAS: Gotcha. Oh, and a wooden handle. Okay. Very cool, very cool.
OLIVER: I wanna know finally, and for all time, is that cap fleece or pashmina?
THOMAS: [laughs]
OLIVER: It’s not a coarse weave wool.
CARMEN: I think it is wool. I mean, I have two of the same. This one looks more, see, this is more brushed. See, this is the alternative. I have a green hat, the same as I’m wearing right now, but green, in my hand. And it’s more soft. I think this is, yeah, more of like, finer woven than the one I’m wearing right now. But, yeah, I don’t know. [happy laugh]
OLIVER: Well, the mystery will have to be prolonged.
CARMEN: [laughs]
OLIVER: We’ll meet sometime.
CARMEN: Yes, and you could read the tag for me, or I could get someone to read the tag for me and send you!
NEFERTITI: Carmen, I value very much friendship and family and all of this, and I just really enjoyed witnessing that communication between your brother and you, navigating with your canes and talking about how you’re using little body parts to detect and to keep safe and to gather information and all of. I just think there’s something so, so beauteous about that. Whereas, people can think, oh, how sad or what have you. And I just, I was really moved by that, this idea that it’s a difficult time and yet you have your brother, your flesh and blood, right there to share in it with you and to share of yourself with him. And that’s captured through the growing that you do. And I heard you here say today that it’s become sort of a family endeavor. So, I just really wanna congratulate you and really appreciate that you chose to share that with the world.
CARMEN: Thank you. Aw, that’s really nice. My experience with the cannabis grow with my brother growing for me has been a really positive experience where I feel like I’ve really been able to claim some agency with regard to my pain management. And it’s very different than conversations that I might have in the medical setting. It’s based in our relationship. And even, you know, when we, for whatever reason, have friction, we still have the grow that we have to talk about. And too, you know, that kind of anchors us.
NEFERTITI: [chuckles] Yes!
CARMEN: I have to say, too, that, with my condition, So I have retinitis pigmentosa and then sickle cell anemia, and my brother shares the visual condition with me. My sister shares the blood condition with me. So, we have different, I have different relationships with both of my siblings. I carry both of those conditions. They each have, one of my parents who we got these from are not symptomatic. So, we really kind of have banded together in certain ways around our conditions and in really deep ways. And for years and years, until I would say 2020, my sister was the only person I really could talk to about sickle cell. I didn’t really know anybody else. And it wasn’t until I met someone through disability art that also has sickle cell and is like, “This is who I am. And this has this is my experience,” that I was really able to even explore that part of my experience. And my brother gets very, too, like, my brother gets very specific about what he’s growing for me, how it’s working for me, what kinds of things we need to change. Like, it’s a dialogue about my pain management in a very kind of this exchange that I might not have in another setting, yeah.
NEFERTITI: Yeah, it sounds very personal and literal cultivation of care. Literally, you have—
THOMAS: Nice! [laughs]
NEFERTITI: Yeah, right? I got some bars. [laughs]
THOMAS: Nice!
CARMEN: [happy laugh]
NEFERTITI: But yeah, you’re literally cultivating the care, and the cannabis is the tangible proof of that connection.
CARMEN: Right.
NEFERTITI: And it’s just beautiful. Beautiful, beautiful, beautiful.
THOMAS: Yeah.
CARMEN: I should say, there are a lot of people who serve this role in their communities, like as a caregiver-grower for people who are pain patients or who have other chronic illnesses. And it is such an interesting relationship with others in your community. You know, you have this passion for growing and maybe even supporting them in the ways that you can through the grow. But like, you get to know them so personally because, I mean, there’s a lot of, yeah, growers grow for, say, a handful of patients, like 15, sometimes 30. But they’re getting to know these people and what they need and what works for them too. So, it really is a lovely kind of experience. Some cultivators, too, grow strains specifically for people who need what they provide. I just think that’s really wonderful. Yeah.
NEFERTITI: Yes.
THOMAS: Carmen, is that the term, “caregiver-growers”? Is that the name?
CARMEN: Yeah, yeah.
THOMAS: Okay, okay. ‘Cause I know someone who might be interested in doing something like that. Yeah, that’s very cool. Very cool.
NEFERTITI: Yeah. I’m learning so much. I don’t know about these things, so quite an education for me and I think for others. And I also think we had a hand raised, if I caught that. Susannah Mars?
SUSANNAH: Yeah. Hi, this is Susannah.
NEFERTITI: Hi!
SUSANNAH: I just felt I enjoyed it so much. And I love the juicy language that you used. I love the marshmallow tip cane. And similarly to Nefertiti, I felt that nurturance of the plants and the caring among living things is so beautiful because it really crosses between the relationships and the care and the really caring for all living things in that generous and loving way. And the relationships, I appreciated, again, like Nefertiti mentioned, the joy of your relationships and that connection that just suffuses the whole work. It’s very beautiful. I appreciated it, and Thomas, I thought your voice was just lovely mixed in, in the mix. You know, it was all just—
NEFERTITI: Always!
SUSANNAH: —beautiful.
THOMAS: Thank you, Susannah. Thank you. Appreciate it.
SUSANNAH: Thank you. Mmhmm.
NEFERTITI: Always, always. Thomas Reid elevates anything Thomas Reid touches, I just wanna say!
CARMEN: Mmhmm.
THOMAS: Aw, thank you, Nef.
NEFERTITI: Yes! Oh, this is wonderful.
THOMAS: I do wanna ask you a little bit about the ear cleansing. Can you talk about, a little bit about, you know, the way you look at sound and just think about in terms of non-visual and what the ear cleansing thing was really all about?
CARMEN: Yeah, yeah. So, when I was in my undergrad at Simon Fraser University, I took some acoustic communications classes. It’s like the university where that whole practice and field of soundscape studies emerged. In the late ‘60s, there was this thing called the World Soundscape Project, and it was a initiated by R. Murray Schafer, who I talk about in that piece. But they basically got together a handful of researchers who went out into the environment and just started recording sound and listening and developing terminology for what they were noticing. And this whole field of study kind of like, you know, we have the word “soundscape”. We have various ways of even protecting the acoustic environment from noise and sound pollution, noise pollution, sorry. And I just heard about this practice of, like, okay, let’s, it’s sort of like the focus you get when you shut your eyes and are trying to focus your non-visual senses. You just kind of plug your ears for a time, and then you unplug them. And then you are acutely aware of what sounds are where.
And I don’t know. For me, it was a process of learning how sound was spatialized. At the beginning of my vision loss, like, starting to use a cane, I would have to spend time in a room. And you know, I used to run this reading series, poetry event at this bar here called the Railway Club. And I remember just like, it was so acoustically cluttered in that space. And I would sit there, and I was like, I can’t make sense of any of this. But eventually, I just started active listening in that space, and I could, you know, voices, you know. I kind of recognized who was talking, where they were, like, what the dimensions of the space were. I kind of adopted this active listening practice through acoustic communications and these practices that whole crew around the World Soundscape Project. But I think, you know, without that tool, I would find my own way, and I, you know, I know. Sorry, I have to mention that a friend, Andy Slater, who is a blind artist, he really, he dislikes R. Murray Schafer. He’s like, oh, he should not get the spotlight. We should get the spotlight because we’ve been learning how to listen before there was a term for it.
THOMAS: When Antonio said that once he took the earplugs out, and he, it was about 30 seconds that he was looking for something new. He wanted to hear something different. And I was just like, oh, wow. That’s really interesting because there’s sort of like a rule of thumb when creating audio pieces that says, yeah, things should change every 30 seconds because folks’ interests change.
CARMEN: Hmm.
THOMAS: And so, I was like, oh, wow! Look at that. I don’t know if they’re related, [laughs] but he just so happened to be looking for something after 30 seconds, which jumped out at me. Yeah. Very cool. Anyone else have anything?
CHERYL: Go ahead, Susan!
SUE: I was very touched by the scene where your brother was describing what made the plant happy and how you could tell the plant was happy by the angle of the leaves. I have a green thumb, and I raise a lot of plants. And I once went into a car dealer to wait for my car, and the plant that was in the waiting room was very miserable and unhappy. And I went over to the receptionist, and I said, “Please help this plant. It’s very unhappy.” And she just looked at me. So, when the car was returned to me, I took the plant home and took care of it.
CARMEN: Mm!
SUE: And that one scene reminded me of all the times that I notice when plants are happy, but I never thought of touching the plant to see if it was happy.
CARMEN: Mmhmm.
SUE: I notice it by looking at it, so I’m gonna touch my plants more now.
CARMEN: That’s really nice. I love that. He is so attuned to their needs, and he spends time with them so much. And when you’re in the grow room too, you feel like you are…. They have a presence to them.
SUE: Yes.
CARMEN: And yeah, I really like that. And you were attuned to the needs of that plant when you walked into that car dealership. Which, yeah, I think it is a relationship that you have with these living things that you are growing. It’s quite amazing to, you know, like the whole process to like, you know, from seed to, like, when— They’re so fragile, too, as well. When we had our outdoor grow that there was, that was shown in the films, it was on this patio outdoors. There’s about ten plants out there. They got to over six feet tall, maybe seven feet tall eventually. And in Vancouver, you know, you plant them in April, and then they’re ready in maybe October. We had a lot of wind and rain by then, so it’s not a great place for outdoor growing. And I remember getting, because my parents were also keeping their eye on the plants sometimes, they were like, oh. I mean, I remember getting this call that it sounded like they were on a ship or something. They were like, “Oh no! These plants are gonna tip over, and we’re gonna lose them!” And so, it was, I really think it’s like damage control.
The challenge is just protecting them so they can cross the finish line by the end, ‘cause they just grow so tall. And with the weather conditions here, it’s just not ideal. But those kinds of things, I mean, of course, it really just, my brother was so affected by that! And of course, you know, you put months of care into these plants, and you want them to make it to the end. And then each of them holds like 100, sometimes more, 100 grams or more of cannabis. And yeah, if it’s not ready yet, there’s only so much you can do to make it usable. Yeah, it doesn’t get its full growth cycle.
SUE: You sound like, what you were just saying is a metaphor for raising children.
CARMEN: [chuckles]
NEFERTITI: Yeah, and I was going to say life in general, right?
SUE: Yeah.
NEFERTITI: We invest in things, and sometimes they fruit, and sometimes they rot. And you know, it’s like, yeah. I think it’s a beautiful metaphor for these things.
THOMAS: Just don’t smoke your children.
CARMEN, NEFERTITI, and THOMAS: [huge laughs]
THOMAS: Sorry, I couldn’t resist that one.
NEFERTITI: That’s a good one, Thomas. Good advice. Life hack. [laughs]
THOMAS: No, hopefully that’s not good advice!
CARMEN, NEFERTITI, and THOMAS: [still laughing]
NEFERTITI: Earlier you did say “cannibal”. I’m just saying. [laughs]
THOMAS: I know I did say that. Cool, cool. Very good.
OLIVER: I just wanna be sure to thank Carmen and Antonio in absentia for letting us, you know, SADC and with the Blind Audio Chat to premiere these cool movies. Thank you.
CARMEN: Yeah, thank you.
THOMAS: 100%. Yeah.
NEFERTITI: Can people watch these films anywhere? Are you showing them in any film festivals? Do you have plans for the future?
CARMEN: Yeah, we have a longer, we’re gonna launch our Impaired website ‘cause it’s just gonna show our progress. But they’re first gonna be available through SADC’s site, I believe.
OLIVER: Premiering and then living, for at least a while, as streamables on our website.
CARMEN: Yeah, yeah. So, super happy about that. And yeah, we’re continuing to work on, we have a show coming up, another exhibition me and my brother are in, in 2026 at the Mackenzie Art Gallery in Saskatchewan. We have all sorts of plans to do…. Well, we’re still in this long-term process of developing a hallucinogenic pain reliever, a strain of cannabis. My brother’s proposed a name for that strain, Tripping Hazard, which I kind of, I like, yeah.
NEFERTITI: Love it!
CARMEN: [laughs]
NEFERTITI: Oh, my God! I love that!
CARMEN: Yes, yeah.
NEFERTITI: Oh, I’m a sucker for a play on words. I love it.
CARMEN: If anyone shows up in Vancouver, you know, we are legal for recreational use here, and I do have some homemade concentrates that I’d love to share, especially for folks who are, who do have visual hallucinations. ‘Cause I, one of the things I’ve been loving is talking to people like Thomas and Andy and our friend Collin and others about their visual hallucinations and also how cannabis might affect them. Yeah.
THOMAS: Absolutely. Absolutely! Let me just. Hold on. I was just on Flights.com. Vancouver.
CARMEN, NEFERTITI, and THOMAS: [big laughs]
NEFERTITI: I was thinking when I was in Vancouver last year, damn it, I wish I would’ve known of you, at least, because I would’ve definitely made an effort to try and connect. But I know you now, and I work for a Vancouver company, so.
CARMEN: Cool, cool.
NEFERTITI: Yeah, I might come through.
CARMEN: For sure.
NEFERTITI: Thank you so much.
THOMAS: Bring me something back, Nef. [laughs]
NEFERTITI: You bet, Thomas. Absolutely. Well, thank you, again, Carmen, for your time, for your talent, for your knowledge. And thank you, Oliver, for being here as part of the process, Cheryl and Thomas as co-hosts and co-members of the BCAD and SADC. We have a monopoly on all these letters, y’all.
THOMAS and CARMEN: [laugh]
NEFERTITI: And yeah, do we have any final thoughts as we shut this baby down? Okay. I think that answers that.
THOMAS: Smoke ‘em if you got ‘em.
CARMEN: Thank you so much, everybody. I hope you all enjoy today, and yeah, imbibe or partake in whatever ways you feel comfortable. I do love rolling a joint, actually. Like, that’s like, I love the tactile experience of, I use these raw, they’re called raw cone wraps or something, king-size cone wraps. And I just love filling them and twisting them and yeah, just. Yeah, I guess it’s like a nice pairing to our dreary weather here, sitting on the patio in the rain [laughs] with a joint.
THOMAS: Yeah. Sounds good.
CARMEN: Yeah.
NEFERTITI: Heck yeah. That’s artistry in and of itself.
CARMEN: [laughs] Yeah.
NEFERTITI: Yeah, definitely.
OLIVER: And this has been a joint production.
THOMAS and NEFERTITI: [laugh]
NEFERTITI: Nice, Oliver! Nice. All right, everybody, thank you so much. Till next time!

THOMAS: Cool. Well, that concludes this week’s conversation. Why don’t y’all keep the conversation going on social media.
CHERYL: Use #ADFUBU, for us by us, #DescribeEverything, and #AudioDescription.
NEFERTITI: And hey, you know we’re out here, right? Mmhmm! Gathered and galvanized y’all. If you haven’t joined us yet, what are you waiting for?! You can find us in the LinkedIn Audio Description group and the AD Twitter community. We know that your participation will only make these spaces better.
Music fades out!

Hide the transcript

— Sounds of Thunder storm transitions into a birdsong filled spring day!
TR:
I’m fortunate to live in a place where I’m greeted each morning, during three seasons, by happy bird songs.

There’s this one bird, I think he’s responsible for making the daily announcements to all of the birds in the neighborhood. I’m dead serious.

Growing up in the Bronx, we had pigeons and those little brown birds that bounce. Some of y’all know what I’m talking about.
What are those birds? Are they babies? I don’t think they’re baby pigeons.
Are they orphans? I never saw them with their parents.

Obviously, I admit, I don’t know much about birds, but since moving out to the Poconos, I’ve become a fan.

there’s this one bird, I’ll call him the bird caster.
I first hear him in the morning around 5 AM in the back of my house. He’s calling out to the others. It’s not a song. It sounds more like a message.

— A fluttering high pitch voice
“Good morning everyone! Today’s announcements: First, to all the youngsters, class will begin at 8 AM sharp! The weather today, partly sunny, but be prepared it feels as though a front is moving in from the west.”

This is not a direct translation, but I’m telling you, bird caster is making announcements.

Next thing you know, he’s off, repeating the process on the east side of the house.
Flying around the neighborhood, spreading the daily word, that appears to be bird casters role; delivering messages.

— Sounds of birdcaster in the back repeating his message.

My wife doesn’t like birdcaster.
She’s not a morning person.
That’s more my thing!

I respect birdcaster. He has a function and seems to take it pretty seriously. Based on my unscientific research, outside of rainy mornings, birdcaster is out there doing his thing.

It’s spring y’all, I’m waiting on birdcaster and the rest of his crew to return.

Since we’re in this Art of Adjustment season, I’ll take a queue from nature and deliver a bit of a message.

I know there are lots of our brothers and sisters out there who because of disability, feel as though they’re currently in a season of wait.
But, you’re actually in a season of prepare.

This down time that you’re feeling, is perfect for rehab, retraining, for formal or informal education.
Maybe it’s trying something new, something that’s always been of interest.
As much as possible, consider focusing your energy on you and really dive in and use the season.

Remember, a little movement in some direction is the beginning of momentum.

— Pause

I just made that shit up! (Laughing) I’m Thomas Reid host and producer of Reid My Mind Radio. baby! Let’s go!

— : Reid My Mind Theme Music

— Caribbean soundscape (beach, calypso music maybe outside bar)

TR:
In this episode we move forward with my continuous self-portrait, where I explore my adjustment experience based on aspects of conversations with my guests.

While it didn’t make it into the final edit, my actual conversation with Kiana Glanton featured in the last episode, began with her love of Carnival.

I’m not talking about the traveling amusement parks with rickety roller coasters, stuffed animal prizes and funnel cake.
— In a filtered voice; mm…. funnel cake!

I’m talking about Caribbean Carnival.

— Sounds of ocean waves and a steel drum lead calypso music.

The origin of Carnival dates back to Egypt. That’s in Africa y’all!
It was then adopted by Greeks, Romans and Europeans. But what we know as Carnival today has it’s roots in the Caribbean islands where former enslaved Africans celebrated their freedom and more.
It takes place around the world in various forms.

My only experience of Carnival is the West Indian Labor Day Parade on Eastern Parkway in Brooklyn.

— Sounds from the West Indian Parade in Brooklyn!

Kiana:
My favorite carnival hands down is Barbados Crop Over, where it’s the end of the summer season would really literally the crops are over in the whole island celebrates with the parade and parties and festivals and competitions for Soca and Calypso.

For me that down home, very connected, very communal experience came from Barbados.

TR:
It just so happens, when Kiana and I were discussing Carnival, I recently confirmed that my paternal grand father was Jamaican.
I’ve always thought this was the case, but never confirmed.

My mother was from Puerto Rico and I’ve always felt a certain attraction to the Caribbean.
Like I want to move their at least part time the way folks winter in Florida.
No disrespect to my brothers and sisters in Florida, but y’all got to get rid of that governor and the incredible anti blackness.
Yes, it’s everywhere but woof!

Kiana:
The moment I stepped foot in Barbados, I felt like I was home there was this very Africanist.
This very kindred kind of connection that happened the moment that I got there, that I felt like I had been there before, or that I was home.

I was just like yo, , I could live here.
I feel so welcomed.
And I think it is the inherent African spirit, honestly, that like, makes you feel at home.

— Music begins: A up beat percussion heavy African Soca inspired rhythm beat.

TR:
My genealogy isn’t the focus of these episodes.
This is about the art of adjusting, which like these self-portrait episodes is a continuous process

Kiana:
I have not figured out how to participate as a visually impaired person simply yet, because there are safety issues, you have 1000s of people drinking, you have trucks that are moving.
This could be an incredibly day and then your own streets that are not like the streets in the US these are Caribbean streets that have had hurricanes, and everything.
The infrastructure is really different. So it’s not the safest thing to cane, I would say safely behind drunk people and behind the truck. So I have not figured out how to reengage in carnival just yet, but I’m determined that I will return at some point.

TR:
It goes beyond just navigating.
So much of the Carnival environment is visual, but it’s also about community, food and drink.

My first thought is why not experience the Carnival from within as part of a float.
I’m often more interested in being a part of the production. Creation over consumption. Unless we’re in the kitchen, consumption is my preference.

I know there are some out there who hear my approach and may feel it’s limiting.
Thomas, come on man, you can use your white cane and get around if you try.
They’re not wrong. But, if you ever been in such a crowd of people all enthralled by what’s going on around them,
plus add in the rum and other libations, I just don’t know if that’s a battle I personally want to take on. You can, if that’s your desire! You better have some back up canes.

My agenda is more about enjoying the Soca and Calypso music. Sipping on my refreshing rum punch or some Ray & Nephew,
and ultimately reveling in the festivities. But if you want to use that time to gain an O&M Grand Master badge, I support your right to go for it!

I also support disabled people, using our voices to challenge society in different ways. Rather than us conforming to what so called able bodied people deem as…

–Music Ends.

“normal”, why not purposefully enter these spaces with the intention of making them accessible, comfortable environments for us too?

# Working within Blindness

TR in Conversation with Kiana:
I’m curious.
There’s a conversation in the community about whether or not people should be involved in the blindness field.
There’s this idea that oh, some people go in there because it’s easy.
Some people think that that’s a cop out, Oh, you shouldn’t go into the blindness field, you should go out into the workplace and do other things that have nothing to do with your blindness.
.
Have you heard that conversation? What do you think about it?

Kiana:
My thought is this.
You do not get to tell me how to live my life and how to be successful how to be great at being a blind or low vision person.
How do you know that this is the most effective? How do you know that this makes the most sense?

TR:
So much of the philosophy around blindness is based on the idea of being independent. I truly believe in being independent. However, conforming to society for the sake of appearing independent and not in need of any “special” help, well that just let’s society go unchallenged.

Think about it, the NFB from my understanding, advocated against Accessible Pedestrian Signals. This technology was considered an insult to Blind people and our ability to safely cross streets.
Similarly, folks felt the same about audio description and our ability to consume visual content.

“We don’t need no special help”

Meanwhile, the only thing that’s so called special is the way we access the information that’s already there being used or consumed by those who are not Blind. You know, the normals!

I’m getting some real internal ableism vibes from this.

Plus, it feels selfish AF!

Kiana:
Just because you and I are on this side of being able to talk about it without breaking down or punching a wall or being in distress and deep depression doesn’t mean that somebody else isn’t coming straight off of that.

I know what it felt like learning how to cross the street in tears, holding my baby’s hand and she was three and I was blindfolded.
Learning how to use this cane.
I know what it felt like thinking, how am I going to braid her hair? What if she swallows a penny? How am I going to get help? How am I going even know she’s in distress, all this fear And worry.

TR:
Over the years of producing this podcast, that’s been the struggle for me. Admitting the challenge of blindness,
while espousing our abilities, independence and sending a positive message. Making people aware that blindness by itself isn’t limiting, rather it’s the restrictions and limitations established by society .
It’s the barriers society puts in our way that requires overcoming, not our blindness.

Kiana:
Imagine how powerful that is, when we help our community.

Somebody sat with me and told me it was gonna be okay, that it wasn’t gonna be easy, but it is possible. And once you start to organize your world in your mind, and restructure how you think about what success is, then anything is possible in having a functional, happy existence. One of independence and a purpose is possible.

TR:
Let’s be real, hearing that from someone who has been through it is so much more powerful than getting that same message from a non disabled person.

Kiana:
So to the people who encourage you to go out into the world, go for it if you want to.
That’s your thing.
But I feel purposeful in this field.

TR:
As someone producing content specifically for and about disability, some have tried to encourage me to move beyond disability and seek out opportunities to create audio for and about mainstream topics.
I could. But those who make these suggestions never asked me what I wanted. They assumed I was only doing this disability related stuff as a means to something larger, something better, something not disabled. But I don’t see non disabled or bigger as better. Especially when we think about impact.

We have power, even in small numbers

I’m reminded of Kiana and her friends starting what they call the Rescue Experience. They understand that meaningful impact doesn’t necessarily require grand gestures or large amounts of money.

Kiana:
Donating money to a woman who needs to buy coats for her children, or getting her hair done.
Or sending someone we know who’s overworked and tired to a hotel for the night with dinner, and a spa the next day.
People who just needed a little bit of help, who was doing the work, but just use a little bit of support.

TR:
Isn’t that all of us at some point in our life?

I know some want you to believe they did it all by themselves. Holding tight to the idea that their own success was fully based on their individual work. The same folks who won’t acknowledge that perhaps they had advantages that others do not. Access to well funded schools, technology and people.

When we realize we all need a bit of support, maybe we’ll be more inclined to extend that to others as wel.

— Music begins: A traditional sounding slow, smooth Reggae Riddim!

# Audio Described Carnival
TR:
Back to that idea of claiming our own space within existing environments.

When I think about Kiana’s desire to once again enjoy the Caribbean Carnival experience, I have to ask, why not create our own space?
Yes, we advocate for our inclusion in various spaces and places and that’s fine.
But right now, I’m thinking more like the bum rush and less like asking. When I say the bum rush, I’m not referring to the original term where
a crowd of people just rush the door and get into an otherwise restricted area.

— Pause

Well, maybe I am, just not in a violent way.

What happens when we as disabled people worked together to assertively take over sections of these spaces and make them work for us? Obviously, you can’t just go into an existing theater and start building ramps and taring down walls , but we could collectively find a space along the route of a Carnival and create an accessible environment for us. Sort of on that “yeh, we’re here, what up?”

Are there disabled brothers and sisters in the Caribbean who are already doing this? I’m not trying to be the Christopher Columbus and think I discovered something already there. If it doesn’t exist, is this of interest to those living in the Caribbean? I’m pretty sure others like Kiana would be interested in traveling to the islands and accessibly immersing themselves in the Carnival experience.

So let me ask you. Who would be up for an Accessible, audio described Carnival experience? I’m talking about a space within the space designed and made for us!

Picture it.

A designated accessible area along the Carnival route, packed with food and drink (refreshing rum punch) and water, you got to have your water….

— In a filtered voice: Bruh! you’re a man of a certain age now, don’t forget a nearby bathroom

True!
All with live audio description.

— In a filtered voice: Not the bathroom!

Are there any Caribbean describers in the Reid My Mind Radio Family? Seriously, who in the family would be down to experience Carnival with AD?

— Music ends.

Hit me up, ReidMyMindRadio at Gmail.com.

# Close

— Music begins: A bright, mid tempo groove.

TR:
When I thought about this Art of Adjustment season, specifically , giving more thought to aspects of the conversations I have with my guests, I didn’t realize where it could go.
There’s something about it that feels natural. Taking the time to sit with the thoughts and ideas feels really important and necessary.

In the episode featuring Kiana, she spoke about her praying for opportunity. She acknowledged that now she finds herself really busy because her prayers are being answered.
These self portrait episodes for me are a way to slow down. I’m appreciating the time, sitting with these conversations, letting them breathe a bit. It’s an opportunity to spark or reignite ideas and explore them and see where they lead.

Sharing these conversations makes me feel a little like my friend birdcaster.

— In the high pitch fluttering voice: “What up baby!”

There are multiple messages for whoever wants or needs it at a given time. If you too choose to share, that extends the reach of one conversation originally between to people.

Before I fly away, let me remind you to make sure you rock with Reid My Mind Radio wherever you get podcasts.
We have transcripts and more at ReidMyMind.com.
And no matter what season, winter spring summer or fall or if you’re like Babyface who only believes in two seasons;
you can find me by spelling the name the right way.
;
that’s R to the E I D!
— Sample: (“D! And that’s me in the place to be.” Slick Rick
” Slick Rick)
Like my last name!
— Reid My Mind Radio outro
Peace!

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